this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024
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[–] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 81 points 5 days ago (15 children)

There’s no way humans didn’t have human problems. This seems like an extension of the “good ol’ days” that views the past with rose tinted glasses. There absolutely would have been theft, murder, laziness, have-nots…whatever. People are people.

Ninja edit: found this.

https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/bitstream/handle/11122/9753/8729.02.conn.1991.punishment-precolonial-indigenous.ch.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y

Banishment, execution, murder, and theft among other things were absolutely a thing.

[–] WelcomeBear@lemmy.world 46 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I would go so far as to say this is some classic “noble savage” bullshit that only serves to dehumanize people.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 20 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Yeah, in a big way. The European colonists committing genocide on the Native Americans does not have to have the Native Americans as inhuman angels to be a massive atrocity and grievous wrong, and trying to take the position that the Native American societies were is nothing more than a xenophilic form of cultural conservatism and chauvinism.

Native American peoples were people, like any other, with human problems common to any society, unlike what this quote implies. They do not have a 'magic' history for outsiders to aspire to become 'as good as', they do not have the secrets to the elimination of the dastardly social ills of 'civilization'. They're people. They're people who deserved better than the atrocious treatment that they got, but the 'Noble Savage' stereotype is no more humanizing or acceptable than the 'Ecological Indian' stereotype.

[–] Donkter@lemmy.world 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It kind of goes both ways. Just because "people are people" doesn't mean any comparison of the savagery of two cultures is suddenly invalid. Native Americans had war, rape, disease etc. but then they got colonized by one of the most brutal, violent cultures in the world at the time.

If I lived with a spouse and kids in the suburbs and a murderer came in and killed my family. It would be pretty silly for my friend to say "stop trying to paint your old life as perfect. You and your wife were people. You fought often and you were hiding a gambling addiction. I swear this "noble domestic bliss" stuff is really not helping your cause."

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

but then they got colonized by one of the most brutal, violent cultures in the world at the time.

The past is filled with cultures which commit genocide, mass mutilations, torture, systemic rape, etc. The Europeans are only notable because they had unusual success, because that success came at the same time as philosophical development which began to make that treatment towards other Europeans taboo, and because that success eventually was leveraged into a system of strict hereditary privilege we're still dealing with today.

The Europeans were not more torture-happy than the Natchez, not more murderous than the Aztecs, not more mutilatory than the Sioux.

What the Europeans were was hypocrites. At a time when humanist notions of basic dignity and universal brotherhood were being preached by scholars and theologians, European soldiers were murdering and enslaving Mesoamerican peoples en masse. In an era when tolerance was quickly becoming the watchword of the day, European priests burned ancient texts in the Americas for the suspicion of pagan notions. In an era when 'all men are created equal', American colonists denied not only the right of the Native American tribes to be equal polities, but even denied them the ability to be equal citizens.

It's less jarring when a culture which believes that incorrect ritualism will doom the universe murders people for religious reasons, or when a culture admits that it finds the murder of women and children to be an honorable deed to slay civilians, or that a chauvinistic culture extols itself above all inferiors; compared to one that preaches one value and acts according to another entirely. Not even in a selfish manner, but in a manner suggesting a total reversal of their claimed principles.

When American colonists murdered American tribes from the youngest to the oldest, saying 'nits make lice', that was not some exceptional deed that had never happened before in the history of the world; a scant few generations ago Europeans were doing just that to one another; American tribes had done the same to each other since times immemorial; same with every other suitably wide collection of cultures on the planet. The difference was that we were supposedly 'civilized' enough to recognize the basic dignity of one color of our fellow man, but none of the others.

THAT is what makes European colonialism repulsive beyond the 'normal' passage of history, the butchering of Saxons by Franks, or of Pawnee by Sioux, or of Chinese by Mongols. We claimed to know better - we demonstrated an understanding of the values that should have prevented such action - we demonstrated the ability to restrain ourselves in dealings with fierce (European) foes - and yet we proceeded to indulge in the worst impulses of man that we claimed we had left behind anyway. We were not ignorant, we were not running on fundamentally different values that made murder somehow okay like Bronze Age fanatics - we made a deliberate choice to exclude subsections of our fellow man from the 'enlightened' values we were redefining our civilizations by.

They were not medieval peasants who knew no higher word than their lord's. They were not Aztec warriors brought up in a culture of human sacrifice and flower wars. They were men who were raised reading the works of the humanist enlightenment, whose norms should have excluded many of the actions they took - but when they saw a human being of a different color than them, they turned every last goddamn one of those norms on its head like they were the Hebrews bashing in the skulls of gentile infants in the Bronze Age.

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[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 86 points 6 days ago (1 children)

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/popular-books/aboriginal-people-canadian-military/warfare-pre-columbian-north-america.html

"As early as the year 1000, for example, Huron, Neutral, Petun and Iroquois villages were increasingly fortified by a timber palisade that could be nearly 10 metres in height, sometimes villages built a second or even third ring to protect them against attacks by enemy nations."

[–] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 73 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I was going to say. First Nations did not have some amazing peaceful utopia. They killed each other for resources too.

[–] banghida@lemm.ee 42 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Almost as if they were human, doing human things

[–] Klear@lemmy.world 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Damn humans. They ruined humanity!

You humans sure are a contentious people

[–] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 63 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Kinda weird that everyone had a horse. Considering there where no horses in the Americas before colonialism.

[–] OneOrTheOtherDontAskMe@lemmy.world 19 points 6 days ago (2 children)

There were. They just happened to have died out. So, ancient native Americans, potentially horse-knowledgeable, and then they died out 10000 or so years ago.

Which is an even weirder and more fun fact, an addendum fact.

[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works 8 points 5 days ago

There were no horses in America, there were evolutionary ancestors of horses that would not be able to fulfill any horse role.

Just like zebras are not horses and wolves not dogs. They would obviously not be owned by Native Americans nor would the Native Americans have a remarkable body of knowledge about them (like they developed with actual horses).

Horses were bred to be big and strong enough in Central Asia.

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[–] a4ng3l@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] AEsheron@lemmy.world 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

As the other comment pointed out, horses used to be found in the America's, but had since gone extinct before Europeans reintroduced them.

[–] anomnom@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 days ago (4 children)

Horse-like ancestors, not horses. And they were 10,000 years ago.

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[–] Clinicallydepressedpoochie@lemmy.world 16 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

Omg, I recently started playing an retired MMO on some emulated servers and this was totally the vibe. With no economy or large influx of new players all your old stuff just piles up and you keep it, hoping someone will someday show up who can use it. Things had value but not in the sense you could even start an economy. For me, I loved getting end game weapons, which are an absolute grind, then gifting them. I had a few but it was always more satisfying to give them away.

I was also told the most profound thing while playing. Someone said, "you're hogging yourself." Since I really like playing solo. I still haven't reconciled it. Like I don't want to hog myself but at the same time it doesn't seem like others want to play with me. I try to be inviting but I guess the only thing I don't really do is make myself vulnerable. Like truly vulnerable. I'm scared to though.

[–] micek@feddit.nu 1 points 3 days ago

Me too gets curious, what game?

[–] MintyFresh@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago
[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

All of this was false but

You were exiled or executed so there was no need for jails

Now you can apply this to the rest

A barter system != giving things away

Actually they didn't even have words for exile or execution, it was literally kumbaya as fuck 24/7 until the British showed up

[–] bizarroland@fedia.io 34 points 5 days ago (28 children)

The number of people that want to quote native Americans and talk about how native Americans were screwed over by the white man and how terrible it is all the things that have been done to them divided by the people in that group who are willing to give up their property and their lives and move back to their ancestral homes is the same as any number divided by 0.

And I'm saying this as a Lakota man.

You don't want to actually do anything about the problem with native americans.

You just want to feel Superior to other people.

But don't get off of your high horse because I'm sure the fall will kill you.

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[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 37 points 6 days ago (2 children)

This feels very "noble savage."

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[–] ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works 15 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

Imagine being able to successfully convince yourself that the existence of defences, and conflict, between neighbouring indigenous nations, is equivalent, to the point of nullifying, sailing around the globe genociding and enslaving its population as you go, for profit.

White supremacy is a hell of a drug.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago

The OP paints native culture as Utopian, when even some cursory historical knowledge of the Aztecs and Incas would refute.

But its upsetting to think three centuries of ruthless pogroms and genocidal wars can be so easily justified by announcing "Native life wasn't perfect".

White supremacy is a hell of a drug.

The White Man's Burden

[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 2 points 4 days ago

No one is claiming that, people are pointing out the image is wrong

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 31 points 6 days ago (14 children)

A man's worth was measured by how good he was at killing the other tribe's men. So there's that.

[–] Sergio@slrpnk.net 19 points 6 days ago

Native Americans weren't/aren't some monolithic people. Back then they no doubt had a lot of different ideas on measuring a man's worth.

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[–] feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago

damn, these savages noble af

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 28 points 6 days ago

This perpetuates an inaccurate stereotype, and separately, it makes no sense. Downvoted.

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

lmao this is pure bullshit, like boomer on facebook, HRC lib bullshit

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