this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2025
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Mildly Infuriating
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Maybe it's your job to avoid patronizing places that don't pay their employees enough though?
No, it's not, however as a near-minimum wage worker myself, it is also not my job to cover a massive corporation's lack of proper budgeting...
I absolutely will pick the no-tips place given a choice, but I take issue with that wording. Basically every business pays as little as possible, by design.
"As little as possible" and "not enough" are two different things.
I suppose, but it's really hard to separate. You have to pick a cutoff, which in the face of a world full of intangible wealth and costs is hard, and then if you come out with a number that's too high you basically have nowhere you can shop.
There's select industries that are super shitty, and I avoid those, but paying minimum wage for unskilled labour is a normal industry. (And, ironically, a lot of the fair-ethical-organic type businesses are super shitty themselves, because everyone wants to get paid extra and some will do horrible things to make that happen)
You're saying this like it's necessary to eat in restaurants with waiters. It isn't. It's a luxury.
Wait, where are you? I thought I recognised you from .ca, but it sounds like you might be thinking of the US system where they can pay nothing except tips. In my province you earn at least minimum wage as a waiter, and tips.
If I were to just straight up refuse to eat from restaurants under any circumstance, I'd be heavily incurring those intangible costs I mentioned, because it's an expected social thing. That being said, I might consider it if I was in the US, but I'm not.
Also, tips have expanded well beyond servers, but that's kind of beside the point.
Well you thought wrong. I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived there until about two weeks ago when we fled.
And in my 47 years in America, I was never in a situation where I couldn't say, "no thanks" if someone invited me to a restaurant. And who invites you to restaurants and makes you pay?
Like, most people. Unless they offer, it's not culturally expected to be a gift. "No, I won't discuss this over coffee"/"no, we can't have the meeting at a restaurant" would go over like a wet fart, and explaining that it's because of minimum wage workers wouldn't make it much better. (FWIW I'm also poor enough that's a pretty big expense, but middle and upper class people hate being reminded people like me exist)
Congratulations on getting out. Best of luck wherever you are now.
How about, "let's eat at this restaurant instead, they treat their workers better?"
Is that really so hard?
I have no special knowledge of the working conditions of local restaurants.
Have you tried talking to people who work there?
And why would they tell me, a relative stranger who, while actually local, seems kinda like a dirty city liberal? Or worse, they know who I am and that I'm weird.
What I hear around the community lumps staff in with employers, and I haven't heard people badmouthing their own employers much at all. I do avoid the antivax cafe.
Look, you seem to be making a ton of assumptions about what my local environment is like, how much time I have, how good my Lemming social skills are, and how much importance I would place on this one particular aspect of our society, versus all the others I could be thinking about. I appreciate the concern for service workers, but being hounded about this feels more like you're arguing for it's own sake.
The only thing I'm assuming is that you feel like you can't talk to people who wait tables about their working conditions because "you seem kinda like a dirty city liberal," which means you are forced to go to restaurants that treat their employees unfairly and also pay them out of your own pocket.
And I am only assuming those things because they are literally things you have said.
Yes, that is a (very incomplete) summery of my own statements.
Those are the ones which are relevant to what I am talking about. If you feel I didn't bring up something relevant, feel free.
But as far as I can tell, it would not be difficult for you to ask a waiter, "do you have to make up your pay in tips because you get less than minimum wage?" You just are assuming they won't say to you because of how you look for some reason.
Well, the answer to that question would just be no. Like I said, it's the law, and things can be sketchy here but not like that.
Well now you're just lying.
https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/
Again, I'm not in America, and that's not even what I meant. There is no exception to minimum wage for tipped workers here.
Well I admit I missed you aren't in America. But this whole thing has literally been about minimum wage waiters having to make up their pay with tips in the U.S., so...
Ah. Okay.
If you go back a bit, I did try to point out it's different here when I figured out that's what you meant.
I would happily pay more for my meal if it meant I didn't have to tip. The benefit we get from not tipping is marginal compared to the benefit restaurant owners get by not paying living wage. Not to mention it's added stress to the actual people doing the work because they don't even get the guarantee of a decent paycheck.
And there is a choice, you chose to perpetuate the system that grossly exploits the laborer, I choose to have minimal participation in such a system. Want to take a guess which of the two actually has a chance to fix the system?
But you are defending the system. You're literally saying if you end up in a place that expects tipping then you should tip. What if you're going out with a group and that group decides to go somewhere that expects tipping? Are you supposed to remove yourself from the group so you wouldn't go into a place like that?
You can't take this black and white stance where if you end up participating in this system you also have to perpetuate that system. Making the customer feel like they're responsible for the livelihood of the staff is how this tipping culture is kept alive and that is exactly what you're doing right now. You're trying to claim we are responsible for their livelihood simply because we stepped into the restaurant and ate.
Trying to guilt people into tipping
Literally telling people to tip.
If nobody tipped at those restaurants nobody would work at those restaurants and those restaurants would have to either start paying livable wage or go out of business.
And I agree. I avoid going to such restaurants if given a chance. But if circumstances require going to such a restaurant do you really think tipping at that restaurant is less beneficial to the restaurant than not tipping?
If circumstances force me to participate then I should go all the way? Is that what you're saying? So if a vegan orders a plate that happens to have meat in it then the vegan should eat that meat? After-all they've already participated by ordering something with meat.
"If you don't want to support tipping culture, don't go somewhere that expects tips. But if you do happen to go somewhere that expects tips (regardless of how you end up going there) you absolutely must support tipping culture".
Now let me take your point into absurdity.
"If you don't want to support gun violence you shouldn't own a gun. But if you happen to own a gun you should do a mass shooting."
That's how your argument comes across to me. I have no issue with the first part of your argument, I do that. But I have an issue with the second part because that is defending tipping culture.
Which part of that statement was lying or misrepresenting? They're your words. The first part.
And the second part.
What are you not getting? Everything you've just brought up are things I've already covered. I'm done talking to a wall. Either read what I've said or stfu.
Certainly not lol, what a ridiculous thing to say