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IMPORTANT SITE REMINDERS ARE LISTED AFTER THIS RANT (so please read all of it in order to find the rules >:3)

On this mega I shall take the opportunity to rant about one of my favorite things: the Webnovel UNJUST DEPTHS!

Do you love transgenders?

Do you love communism?

Do you love queer romance?

Do you love killing fascists in a giant fucking mech?

Would a plotline with all of these things happening in a underwater retro-futuristic gundam setting intrigue you?

Especially if its actually really well written with good characters, rich worldbuilding, and a marxist leninist transfem author?

All of the answers should be: YES I DO ~~or else I WILL BAN YOU~~

Since you obviously love all of those things then Unjust Depths is perfect for YOU yes YOU! It is DESTINY

The Imbrian Ocean is at a time of severe instability. The monarch of the vast Empire that spans its unjust depths (:3) is sick and nearing death, every territory of the ocean now vying to carve their own Destiny out of the chaos. From the Volk fascists pigmask-off , Zionists hamas-base (they literally will not die why are they still here oh my god), The 'Anarchists' (social chauvanists) lenin-dont-laugh in Bosporus, and the monarchs gui-trans of each vast noble domain, each vies for power and prestige no matter who they crush underfoot, but it would be a pretty depressing story without a bright light in the dark.

On the edge of the Empire sits the glorious Union! The (Soviet) Union soviet-chad is a socialist federation of three states (and one anarchist mountain left-unity-4 )that were formerly slave colonies under the Imbrian Empire until they broke away in a fierce liberation war. They have spent the last 20 years since then building themselves up. Whether they be Human bridget-disco , Shimmi kbity-how (Catgirls who usually follow a religion closely related to modern Islam), and Kattaran transshork-happy (a hybrid humanoid species with characteristics of sea life ranging from sharks to cuttlefish)building socialism side by side.

First lead under the revolutionary leader Dashka Kansal, then the Idealist Ahwalia who lead the country to near ruin in pursuit of building a utopia on pillars of sand, then under the scientific socialist three-heads-thinking leadership of the Grand Marshall of the Union, Bhavani Jayanskar (I love Jayanskar so much shes basically as if Stalin, Lenin, and Zhukov were rolled into the same person but was a black lesbian badass who wore the uniform REALLY WELL)(she aint the main character at all tho shes only in very few scenes i just love her so much). Under Jayanskar, the Union has been growing their economy to both eliminate hunger and give everyone a home chad-stalin , but also growing their military capabilities for the inevitable return of the Empire. The Union is alone, but with the people by its side nothing, not even Destiny, can snuff out true freedoms light. specter

As war wages between the Empire and Republic (basically underwater USA) once more over the lands between them, the facade begins to finally crack...

And a border conflict between the Empire and Union escalate, and the dreaded reconquest begins.

Amidst this turmoil, lives our main characters (yes there are multiple and all of them are lovely). Each of whom I personally love dearly, and are very well characterized. Many are soldiers of the Union, some are scientists, some are divers (mech pilots), some are lost strands finding new meaning after joining this band of Brigands

All are Communists steban

All serve the Union USSR

All would gladly give their lives to defending socialism comrade-stoic

but even they would have little inkling of the adventure set in store for them as the lands beneath the waves erupt in fire, fury, and revolt

Can these transgender badasses kick fascist ass?

Can they kiss? (oh my god please kiss ISTG THERE IS SO MUCH SHIPPING AHHHH ITS GLORIOUS)

FIND OUT HERE: https://unjustdepths.com/

please do or else I will pout incessantly

just try it pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase i need to talk to someone about it after Cromalin went AFK

(I miss her, she was a real one)

REALLY IMPORTANT RULES BELOW, MUST READ

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[โ€“] lilypad@hexbear.net 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I was writing about Lilith and her history in PMs, and decided to put it here in the mega because i find it interesting and want to infodump to as many people as want to read it.

Im not citing sources, sorry. Probably most of what I write is covered in a thesis by Pereira (at least, my notes are riddled with "see Pereira thesis") so yk, go read that if your interested. Also several analyses of the alphabet of ben sirah, as well as research/analyses by kramer and others (work that is super flawed btw so take everything with massive salt), and also a bunch of kabbalistic rabbis and writings (which are, uh, out there. Kabbalah is kinda problematic imo).

In addition, the portion of this on ancient language isnt the best sourced in my notes

Anyway:

Lilith, or how I learned to stop worrying and love being a demon

part 1 (CW biblical traumas, including SV)

Liliths Origin

So, to look at Lilith we have to go way way back. Unfortunately we dont know her origin, its been long lost to destroyed writings and changed or extinguished oral traditions. We can speculate that she played a role in (or perhaps originated in) ancient sumerian mythology.

Just to preface this with a disclaimer: there has probably been more research done about Lilith and her origins since I last looked into it. The origins of lilith are ultimately of lesser importance to me than what she represents directly today, and what she represents to me personally. I'm putting this here because its fascinating.

Even the origin of her name is in question. While the Rabbis saw ืœื™ืœื” (the word night in hebrew) and immediately drew a connection with ืœื™ืœื™ืช (Lilith), this is most likely not the case. Rather, the word ืœื™ืœื™ืช is likely a loan from the sumerian root LIL, which would have it related to the words lalu (verb: to be abundant, noun: luxurious) and lulu (noun: lascivious). Sumerian LIL roughly means wind and spirit; the stuff between earth and heaven, that seperates the two (please see the meaning and etymology of sumerian ENLIL, as well as the words that descend from it, as well as sumerian An-Ki). Theres a whole host of stuff to be said about ENLIL and the creation myth and mythos in general of sumeria, but what we care about is the LIL root.

This LIL root also forms the word Lilitu. Now, this word Lilitu may be related to Lilith, but it may not; we dont have enough information (to my knowledge) to say so definitively.

But theres a few bigger pieces of evidence that people sometimes state as evidence of the etymological origin of Lilith.

One of these reside in the babylonian demon classes of ghost and demon, and more specifically lilu/lilitu and idlu-lili/ardat-lili. These are the masculine/feminine versions of the same demon. Idlu- and ardat- mean a man/woman of full strength, or otherwise fully mature (i.e. not children or the elderly). If Lilith has a root in ardat-lili, then IMO its likely where her "seductress" streak comes from; ardat-lili is a demon with no husband who wanders searching for sexual satisfaction. (iirc the same is true for idlu-lili, just reverse the genders). In the case of ardat-lili, she was said to come to men in their dreams and steal their seed.

Gilgamesh is another potential root, for two reasons. Firstly, the Huluppu tree. It was uprooted and replanted by Inanna, who wanted to make stuff out of it for herself (been a long time since I've looked at this, could be wrong, but point being she wanted to chop it down and use its wood). But she couldnt cause a snake, a bird, and lilith had established their residence in the tree. Lilith is translated from lil-la-ke, but this translation is not explicitly justified and is again circumstantial. Theres more to this but its not incredibly relevant here.

Theres also the issue of gilgamesh's father. again, in short, the candidates are: lugal-banda (a king), the high priest of Kullab, or a LIL-LA demon (note the same root LIL). This is all super super speculative, but if a LIL-LA demon was the father, and gilgamesh's mother was herself divine, this would make gilgamesh's 2/3 divinity make sense, because demons are partially divine (also see the counting system used then and the "1 part = ยฝ, 2 parts = โ…”" thing).

Theres also the Lilith relief. Its a relief carving of an unknown goddess/deity, which people have associated with Lilith without really any grounds (to my knowledge) beyond "the horned crown means she belongs to the divine order, the wings mean she is of the wind, and the owl indicates she is a night demon", so its pretty vibes based. Other potentials include lamashtu and pazuzu, who dont fit for other reasons, so she became associated with sumerian lilitu which were identified with Lilith. Others thing she is Ishtar, or Nergal, or some think it is an unknown godess who was worshipped.

So, all of that to say, we dont know where the fuck Lilith comes from, and the best we have are guesses and theories and conflicting interpretations of art.

The next chronological step

We have a huge gap in our potential string of Lilith we draw back through the ages. From like 2000BCE to maybe 600 or 700 BCE we have no idea what is happening to these myths that (may) inform our modern myth of Lilith.

But what we find in these more recent times (well, as recent as 600BCE can be considered) is that Lilith is mentioned in magical incantations. Namely a set of bowls as well as hebrew amulets. This is the earliest we can almost definitively say "this is Lilith", but we have no way to directly tie her back to the earlier ghosts and the sumerian LIL word root.

There is also the Arslan Tash, but to my knowledge this was a fake that someone made in the 30s, so I tend to disregard whatever I read about it.

The bowls tell the story of Elija meeting Lilith with her posse on her way to kill a mother who is in childbirth and eat her unborn baby. The story isnt really relevant, just its conclusion, that Lilith shall not interfere when she sees her name written or hears it said. It also provides a list of all of her names. Imo, this may be a kind of syncretism or mixing of myths where many cultures have a similar enough figure that she has many names and is conflated into a single being in this list of names.

Then theres the amulets. Amulets are in a weird place in Judaism, cause theyre forbidden by the rabbis, but we have a bunch of practices that originate as amulets (tassles and fringes on garments, Mezuzah, etc.). But what we look to are the pregnancy/childbirth amulets, which carry either the name of Lilith, or the name of one or more of three angels (we will get to them later).

Some amulets also talk about Lilith coming and stealing the seed of men in the night, and using it to reproduce and make more demons. This is one place that we see better evidence for the connection to the ardat-lili, but again it could be a total coincidence.

moving into the years 900-1100 CE

So jumping forward again, we find the alphabet of ben sirah. This is perhaps the most common citation I see when looking at stuff about Lilith.

The big takeaway here is that Lilith began as Adams first wife, which explains why there are two genesises in the Torah. God made Lilith alongside Adam, and she and Adam were going to have sex, and she refused to be beneath him, instead wishing to top him. (side note, a couple rabbis have pointed out that theres some major mistranslations in the bible, and its perhaps better translated that god created an androgynous being which he then split in two, creating man and woman. But thats tangential and not relevant to this story) Because she refused to bottom for Adam, and Adam tried to force her to, she invoked the tetragrammaton and flew away from the garden of eden. The three angels mentioned before came out to see her, and tried to make her come back, but she refused (important note: God himself could not make her return to the garden...). She becomes a demon, births hundreds of baby demons a day, and the angels say that they will kill many many of her children every day unless she comes back. To which she responds that she will then go to the houses of women in labor or who are pregnant, kill them, and take or kill their babies (she has dominion for 8 days for boys and 20-odd days for girls iirc). So the angels negotiate that she wont if she sees their names or her own name inscribed there. (its been a minute since I read this myth, I may have gotten some details wrong but this should be mostly correct).

This is all made a bit more confusing because the alphabet of ben sirah is kiiiiinnnddd of a satirical text. We dont know for certain, but it begins certainly in a manner that would be the equivalent of a ranbinical south park, mocking the prophets birth stories (ben sirah is born speaking, and his whole birth story is fucked: his father is forced by a mob of men to masturbate into the waters of the bathhouse, and a few days later its the womens day at the bathhouse and his daughter is impregnated by his somehow still living sperm, and gives birth to ben sirah), mocking teachers, etc. etc. But it is probably a compiled work, or a work written over multiple years and potentially by multiple authors. So it may have started as a satirical work and become serious. But the portion about Lilith, its unclear to me if it is satirical or not.

[โ€“] lilypad@hexbear.net 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

part 2 (CW biblical BS, SV, ranting about her being refolded into our misogynistic tradition)

Biblically and mystically

Lilith is often thought of in Kabbalah as a cosmic evil force, and if we constrain ourselves to the jewish texts alone (namely genesis, the zohar, kabbalistic texts in general, and various commentaries by the sages), we have a few different origins of Lilith: she arose before Adam on the fifth day, she arose with Adam, she was created as a part of Adam, she arose with Samael as a single androgynous being, arose spontaneously, or arose from the shell/husk of evil.

This all (well, the last few explanations) draws a lot on kabbalah, and is kinda, um, out there. The fourth origin has her and Samael mirroring Adam and Eve in their arising as an androgynous being that is later separated. But the last two have her being a part of the cosmic creation process.

Its waayyyy more than I have the time and inclination to get in to, but Kabbalah puts forth Lilith as a personification/anthropormorphization/embodyment of evil, of the supernatural concept of evil, which is forced into the insanely rigid kabbalistic view of everything and of spirituality. She is talked about as the evil mistress of Y", and as the queen of the underworld. These are metaphores but illustrate how she figures in to the cosmic creation process. She exists all at once in heaven, on earth, and in the "underworld". Kabbalah is hyper dualistic, good vs evil, etc. etc. and she serves as the evil counterpart to Eve, as the "shadow self" of the individual, and in general when tikkun (sort of a mending of the fabric of the universe) has occured, she will have been brought into balance with the other parts of "the feminine". Once the dispirate parts of "the feminine" are reunified, then the reunification of the masculine and the feminine can happen, and eventually everything reunifies with the other aspects of itself, and we all reunify back into God, and restore ein-sof as a single thing that is no longer "withdrawn". So she is kind of an important and key figure in a pretty big part of the process of reunification, as the "dark feminine".

I've kind of skipped over all of this, because Kabbalah is so strange in a lot of ways, that explaining why or even just how a conclusion was made, would require citing 10 different texts, each with 5 different interpretations, and unifying them all together. Seriously, kabbalists do math with letters and use the resulting numbers to infer meaning about the universe and all sorts of wild shit, its way more than I have the energy to get into. Its also kinda super problematic imo.

modern day

So, we see starting in maybe the 70s (maybe earlier?) feminist midrashim that paint Lilith in a wholly different light: one of a first wife, one of the archetypal Woman Who Is Not Subservient To Man, one of a feminist who was strong enough to defy not only Adam, but God himself! She used the power she had to stop Adam from removeding her, and fled and refused to be brought back to Adam. Theres one midrash that shows her returning to the garden, and speaking with Eve, and helping Eve to escape Adam and the garden.

Lilith became the badass woman who didnt take shit and helped her sisters and was strong. She was of the night and was evil and a demon because she didnt do what the patriarchal authorities told her to.

Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnddddd then our gender system enforces her subservience. Lilith was brought back into the patriarchal fold as a "sexy, dark feminine". She has been re-imagined (without anything to really back it up as far as I can telm) as an all goddess (selene lilith), stories of her are told with the basic moral of "liberation is fucking men at their impulse", in general i see an attempt to slowly refold her into our misogynistic tradition as a fucktoy, as a power fantasy of men taming the Rebelious Powerful Woman^tm^. (To be clear, this is not an idictment of sexiness, but rather an indictment of sexiness in service of men and the cultural power fantasy. Its also just my thoughts, and could very well be wrong).

Thats not to say she should be discarded though! She is an incredible archetype, myth, spirit, demon, whatever you want to call her. IMO She should be invoked/related to in archetypically feminine ways that are empowering and bring people freedom from our patriarchal binary gender system. To paraphrase the accellerator, just because the gender superstructure is (at some point in the future) destroyed, does not mean "woman" ceases to exist; just because we tear down the cell walls and can move beyond, does not mean that the position of the cell ceases to exist, we can still reside there but we are also free to move beyond it.

To me she represents transgression against patriarchal norms and society. She represents the demonization that non-men face under patriarchy. She represents an embrace of that demonization; she becomes a demon in a show of force that refuses adam and god himself. She represents a revocation; of blessings, of the gilded cage, of abuse, of assimilation.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed my little write up, its long and meandering and probably wrong in places.

[โ€“] BountifulEggnog@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago

I'm not Jewish, and Lilith has no special meaning to me, but siding with demons is very cool and I'm glad she represents all those things to you. I have wondered about what sympathetic demons exist in mythology for a while, thank you for sharing.

[โ€“] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

LILITH LORE

i found out about her the other week when researching genesis i love lilith lore shes so awesome

[โ€“] lilypad@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago

Have fun ^^ hopefully my infodump is fun and informative ^^

[โ€“] ashinadash@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

mythology and biblical whatever and shit try not to have absolute fuckloads of sexual violence and treat it extremely casually challenge, difficulty level: impossible

[โ€“] lilypad@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Seriously, its full of it. Some of it is painted as evil (e.g. SV at the hands of demons), but a lot is painted as good and rightous, especially when done against women. Fuck, not even SV but I remember learning about the Akedah, not an ok thing to teach children niko-concern

[โ€“] ashinadash@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So what does it take to be interested in that?

[โ€“] lilypad@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Specifically in lilith, or? (Im sorry im not sure i understand your question)

[โ€“] ashinadash@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Any topic of this strain, broadly speaking. Cultural revolutions aside it has always struck me as deeply unpleasant?

[โ€“] lilypad@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

A lot of it is unpleasant.

Part of it is my weird fascination with my families history and our culture and understanding how my family got into its current state of functional dysfunction, which is not strictly a judaism thing but is heavily impacted by it.

Part of it is the constant push/pull of judaism, where its a part of me but I reject it but i accept it and its in me and excised from me all at the same time. (Seriously, this part is confusing as fuck, please send help ive been drowning in this for years)

Part of it is, in a weird way, continuing the rabbinical tradition of reinterpreting the cultural stories and myths in new light and new directions, or even rewriting them in their entirety, and me wanting to understand that process as a way of making sense of myself and my upbringing and the cultural stories.

Part of it is probably from shit like learning about the Akedah, and trying to process that in my own weird way.

Part of it is having a facination with Lilith and wanting to know how she came to be the myth that she is today.

Idk, like, this specific instance about Lilith is explicitly from interest in her, her history, how she functions within liberation, how she exists today in our modern myths.

Editing in: im sorry, i dont have a good answer to this question. There is no one reason why i read about these things. Ig im looking for an answer to something, but I dont quite know what that something/the question is