this post was submitted on 05 Feb 2025
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[–] aliser@lemmy.world 96 points 15 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Agent641@lemmy.world 63 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Probably promoted to middle management instead

[–] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 20 points 13 hours ago

He might be overqualified

[–] UnfairUtan@lemmy.world 187 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (8 children)

https://nmn.gl/blog/ai-illiterate-programmers

Relevant quote

Every time we let AI solve a problem we could’ve solved ourselves, we’re trading long-term understanding for short-term productivity. We’re optimizing for today’s commit at the cost of tomorrow’s ability.

[–] Daedskin@lemm.ee 26 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (6 children)

I like the sentiment of the article; however this quote really rubs me the wrong way:

I’m not suggesting we abandon AI tools—that ship has sailed.

Why would that ship have sailed? No one is forcing you to use an LLM. If, as the article supposes, using an LLM is detrimental, and it's possible to start having days where you don't use an LLM, then what's stopping you from increasing the frequency of those days until you're not using an LLM at all?

I personally don't interact with any LLMs, neither at work or at home, and I don't have any issue getting work done. Yeah there was a decently long ramp-up period — maybe about 6 months — when I started on ny current project at work where it was more learning than doing; but now I feel like I know the codebase well enough to approach any problem I come up against. I've even debugged USB driver stuff, and, while it took a lot of research and reading USB specs, I was able to figure it out without any input from an LLM.

Maybe it's just because I've never bought into the hype; I just don't see how people have such a high respect for LLMs. I'm of the opinion that using an LLM has potential only as a truly last resort — and even then will likely not be useful.

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[–] boletus@sh.itjust.works 34 points 17 hours ago

Hey that sounds exactly like what the last company I worked at did for every single project 🙃

[–] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 4 points 12 hours ago (6 children)

"Every time we use a lever to lift a stone, we're trading long term strength for short term productivity. We're optimizing for today's pyramid at the cost of tomorrow's ability."

[–] Ebber@lemmings.world 11 points 11 hours ago

If you don't understand how a lever works, then it's a problem. Should we let any person with an AI design and operate a nuclear power plant?

[–] AeonFelis@lemmy.world 4 points 9 hours ago

Actually... Yes? People's health did deteriorate due to over-reliance on technology over the generations. At least, the health of those who have access to that technology.

[–] trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world 4 points 10 hours ago

"If my grandma had wheels she would be a bicycle. We are optimizing today's grandmas at the sacrifice of tomorrow's eco friendly transportation."

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[–] Hoimo@ani.social 9 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Not even. Every time someone lets AI run wild on a problem, they're trading all trust I ever had in them for complete garbage that they're not even personally invested enough in to defend it when I criticize their absolute shit code. Don't submit it for review if you haven't reviewed it yourself, Darren.

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 7 hours ago

My company doesn't even allow AI use, and the amount of times I've tried to help a junior diagnose an issue with a simple script they made, only to be told that they don't actually know what their code does to even begin troubleshooting...

"Why do you have this line here? Isn't that redundant?"

"Well it was in the example I found."

"Ok, what does the example do? What is this line for?"

Crickets.

I'm not trying to call them out, I'm just hoping that I won't need to familiarize myself with their whole project and every fucking line in their script to help them, because at that point it'd be easier to just write it myself than try to guide them.

[–] Guttural@jlai.lu 10 points 16 hours ago

This guy's solution to becoming crappier over time is "I'll drink every day, but abstain one day a week".

I'm not convinced that "that ship has sailed" as he puts it.

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[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 9 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Unless they're being physically watched or had their phone sequestered away, they could just pull it up on a phone browser and type it out into the computer. But if they want to be a programmer they really should learn how to code.

[–] billwashere@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago

I work in a dept. at a university that does all the proctored exams. None of that technology is allowed in the exam rooms. They have to put their watch, phone, headphones, etc in a locker beforehand. And not only are they being watched individually, the computer is locked down to not allow other applications to open and there are outgoing firewalls in place to block most everything network wise. I’m not saying it’s impossible to cheat, but it’s really really hard.

Some instructors still do in class exams, which would make it easier, but most opted for the proctored type exams especially during Covid.

[–] boletus@sh.itjust.works 71 points 18 hours ago (16 children)

Why would you sign up to college to willfully learn nothing

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 12 points 12 hours ago

To get the peice of paper that lets you access a living wage

[–] TheSlad@sh.itjust.works 14 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

A lot of kids fresh out of highschool are pressured into going to college right away. Its the societal norm for some fucking reason.

Give these kids a break and let them go when they're really ready. Personally I sat around for a year and a half before I felt like "fuck, this is boring lets go learn something now". If i had gone to college straight from highschool I would've flunked out and just wasted all that money for nothing.

[–] boletus@sh.itjust.works 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah I remember in high school they were pressuring every body to go straight to uni and I personally thought it was kinda predatory.

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I wish I hadn't went straight in, personally. Wasted a lot of money and time before I got my shit together and went back for an associates a few years later.

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[–] Gutek8134@lemmy.world 41 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (4 children)

My Java classes at uni:

Here's a piece of code that does nothing. Make it do nothing, but in compliance with this design pattern.

When I say it did nothing, I mean it had literally empty function bodies.

[–] boletus@sh.itjust.works 22 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Yeah that's object oriented programming and interfaces. It's shit to teach people without a practical example but it's a completely passable way to do OOP in industry, you start by writing interfaces to structure your program and fill in the implementation later.

Now, is it a good practice? Probably not, imo software design is impossible to get right without iteration, but people still use this method... good to understand why it sucks

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[–] dwindling7373@feddit.it 19 points 17 hours ago (2 children)
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[–] Simulation6@sopuli.xyz 47 points 17 hours ago (6 children)

I don't think you can memorize how code works enough to explain it and not learn codding.

[–] FlexibleToast@lemmy.world 23 points 16 hours ago (5 children)

It's super easy to learn how algorithms and what not work without knowing the syntax of a language. I can tell you how a binary search tree works, but I have no clue how to code it in Java because I've never used Java.

[–] TheSlad@sh.itjust.works 15 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

And similarly, i could read code in a language I dont know, understand what it does and how it works even if I don't know the syntax well enough to write it myself

[–] FlexibleToast@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago

Yeah, exactly. At least any fairly modern language. I don't think I could just pick up assembly and read it without the class I took. Heck, I don't think I could read it anymore now that it's been several years since that class.

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[–] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 6 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

You'd think that, but I believe you are underestimating people's ability to mindlessly memorize stuff without learning it.

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 3 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

It's what we're trained to do throughout our education system.

I have a hard time getting mad about it considering it's what we told them to do from a very young age.

[–] Paradachshund@lemmy.today 2 points 11 hours ago

I'm pretty sure chatgpt just tells you how it works, so they probably just memorized what it said.

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[–] kabi@lemm.ee 104 points 22 hours ago (3 children)

If it's the first course where they use Java, then one could easily learn it in 21 hours, with time for a full night's sleep. Unless there's no code completion and you have to write imports by hand. Then, you're fucked.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 124 points 21 hours ago (4 children)

If there's no code completion, I can tell you even people who's been doing coding as a job for years aren't going to write it correctly from memory. Because we're not being paid to memorize this shit, we're being paid to solve problems optimally.

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[–] 404@lemmy.zip 29 points 18 hours ago (3 children)

My first programming course (in Java) had a pen and paper exam. Minus points if you missed a bracket. :/

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[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 87 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

generate code, memorize how it works, explain it to profs like I know my shit.

ChatGPT was just his magic feather all along.

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[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 15 hours ago

run it in a vm

[–] 2ugly2live@lemmy.world 14 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

He should be grateful. I hear programming interviews are pretty similar, as in the employer provides the code, and will pretty much watch you work it in some cases. Rather be embarrassed now than interview time. I'm honestly impressed he went the entire time memorizing the code enough to be able to explain it, and picked up nada.

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