The Tiananmen Square "Massacre" Never Happened : thedeprogram

[–] CicadaSpectre@lemmygrad.ml 50 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

I saw an article about how the photo doesn't matter anymore and everything has changed, and I thought people somehow finally realized the picture is taken out of context to prop up a conspiracy theory, but... no. It was an article about AI editing and how people can "erase history" and remove "Tank Man" from the photo and people can be "tricked" into thinking it never happened.

Which is stupid as fuck. The pic happened. The video happened. Ironically, they do more to disprove the massacre narrative than support it. The massacre didn't happen, and editing a picture isn't going to erase that myth from a country obsessed with believing it.

[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

The article, if my assumption is correct, was about some new Pixel phones' feature where you can prompt a generative AI to add stuff to your picture. Which makes it even more stupid. Because the ability to remove tank man from the picture has existed since the era of film photography.

[–] Aru@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

[–] CicadaSpectre@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

My understanding is they edited the guy out because he was responsible for excesses driven by personal prejudices, and then he was arrested and executed. That's correct, isn't it? Please excuse my ignorance.

[–] Aru@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago

idk either, point is this image editing that liberals believe exists

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Even painters were able to paint over people in their paintings to make it look like they weren't really there.

[–] CicadaSpectre@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago

Ah, so you saw the article, too. Yeah, I have no idea how much that person got paid to write that article, but it was too much.

[–] bloubz@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

It's not a single country that believes in this myth, unfortunately

[–] CicadaSpectre@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago

True, but my experience is limited to the US. I'm assuming it's more or less "always the same map".

[–] commiewolf@lemmygrad.ml 40 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Has Hakim made it big on the algorithm? This video has been recommended to a bunch of my lib friends and they're all talking about it, and weirdly enough it didn't show up for me, despite me being subscribed.

[–] ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Sometimes new videos from users you're subscribed to don't show up in your recommended, because the algorithm sometimes assumes that you'll see the video in your subscription tab, so it would rather use the screen real estate to recommend you other creators or videos.

[–] commiewolf@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

That is ridiculous, if I've got every notification and subscription option active, surely it should be top of my feed? Theres no way that many people browse their subscriptions tab over their front page. What a shit website.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 4 weeks ago

This is exactly why I stopped using YT.

[–] bloubz@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 4 weeks ago

Maybe it got shadow banned before you got the chance to see it recommended to you?

[–] JaredLevi@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago

I exclusively use my sub page and I have the recommendations turned off.

[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 36 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children)

Oh man how’s this gonna play on !breadtube@lemmy.ml? We’re about to find out… https://lemmy.ml/post/19640061

[–] bobs_guns@lemmygrad.ml 33 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

It seems they didn't like it very much but weren't able to offer any substantiated criticisms.

[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 28 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

One person finally showed up to kvetch about [ableist slur] tankies.

[–] trashxeos@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 4 weeks ago

Funny, the only comment I saw (besides the person not knowing how Hakim cites his sources via Patreon posts) just said "Removed by mod" 😏

[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Silent seething downvotes and one rabid anti-tankie who did not watch the video

[–] 666@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 3 weeks ago

Looks like that's what happened here too. 13 doots on a post here is wild.

[–] Mzuark@lemmygrad.ml 29 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

China isn't perfect, but the difference in values never becomes more apparent than with Tiananmen. Whether you believe it happened or not, there's no photo evidence that people were brutalized to such a degree or crushed by tanks. Then you look at something like Kent State or Gaza and the very first thing you see are crushed or mutilated dead bodies.

[–] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

In my personal dealings with Chinese authorities, they've been very kind and unwilling to use excessive force.

What I've been told by acquaintances is that the BLM dream has actually been achieved in China: run-of-the-mill cops are terrified of getting put under investigation and thus be by-the-book. Just do try to avoid giving them excuses to be passive aggressive, however, which is how you should deal with (reasonable) authority in general.

[–] cayde6ml@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago

Do you live and/or have friends in China? I'd love to ask about your experiences.

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 3 weeks ago

I don't watch a ton of videos but we also have a long-form article on the riots, with 26 references: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/1989_Tian%27anmen_Square_riots

[–] 666@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 3 weeks ago

Libs mad

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 4 weeks ago

I found a YouTube link in your post. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 4 weeks ago

[deleted]

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -20 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

I actually prefer that people try to dodge the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, simply because while the Western media distorts what actually happened, people died.

Since the CPC censors news of 6/4, the most favorable story by overseas Chinese is that there was a simultaneous proletarian uprising, that the killings did not occur on the square itself, that it was a combined movement by Maoists and Liberals, that it was not unprovoked, because the rioters attacked the troops first, taking their weapons, and tanks were only seen as necessary because of the vehemence and violence of the insurgency.

But we're still downplaying the killing of civilians, even armed and violent ones, by the People's Liberation Army. That, for us, is not a good look, so that's something I'd rather dodge.

[–] DankZedong@lemmygrad.ml 34 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Nobody is downplaying anything. Saying people died but it wasn't near the '100k people died and were crushed and hosed down the drains' level of horrors isn't downplaying.

The thing with the whole event is that it is near impossible to have a honest discussion about it due to the enormous stream of bullshit that is published and repeated about the event.

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 29 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

No, we arent.

We're describing the reality of the situation with respect for everyone involved.

Liberals will tell you it was a liberal, peacefull protest that was violently repressed and 10k people died. All complete lies, which do diservice to the actual tragedy that happened that day.

We will tell you a balanced account of it with respect to both sides and informed by the history of it.

One respects the dead, the other propogandizes them. We respect them.

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -6 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

But am I pointing out a real and difficult problem?

To cut a long story short, the People's Liberation Army was called in to break an insurrection surrounding protests in Tiananmen Square. Old PLA elites are on record as having opposed intervention, and there was considerable dissent within the Party over the heavy action employed to counter a protest that had gotten out of hand. And people died.

This is the essential problem with Western media ops; i.e, if they say that there's corruption in China, you can't deny it because Xi Jinping is running an anti-corruption campaign and people get taken away by MPS and MSS under the auspices of the Organization Bureau.

However, it gives them the opportunity to spin it, to exaggerate it, to deploy it for their own propaganda purposes.

In the corruption case, we have the case wherein we can point to improved (previously) Corruption Perceptions Indices by the Western-aligned Transparency International NGO.

But in the Tiananmen Square incident, it seems like plain denialism to deliver the necessary nuance.

I mean, you can downvote me for this, but it is a reasonable topic of discussion as to how to handle this talking point, and generally how to deal with "it's true, but exaggerated and spun" propaganda as the West seems to currently prefer.

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

Put it simply, how would you, as a party official in China explain to the famalies of the unarmed police officers who where lynched, flayed and burned alive by protestors that you did not intervene?

Some level of intervention was needed unfortunatly, its a tragedy that it escelated so far. We just call it what it is, a tragedy.

But in the Tiananmen Square incident, it seems like plain denialism to deliver the necessary nuance.

Because you're arguing against the liberal orthodoxy, facts that go against the religion would be filtered into 'denialism', any scepticsm of the dogma needs to be attacked violently.

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -11 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

You're sort of making my point for me, though. It's easy to get dragged down the road of defending the killings of civilians, whereas it just makes us look bad.

I'd hold it happened, and given wiser handling by Zhongnanhai, the deaths could have at least been reduced or even avoided altogether, as in Shanghai.

As is, Zhongnanhai thought they were on the verge of being toppled, called in the PLA to forcefully disperse both peaceful and non-peaceful demonstrators, and here we are.

The focus should be more on how the West weaponizes this in a neoconservative fashion to justify military threat against China, including how the incident is spun and exaggerated.

The full Tank Man video, published by CBS, should be the rabbit hole needed to pull misled Westerners in.

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

You’re sort of making my point for me, though. It’s easy to get dragged down the road of defending the killings of civilians, whereas it just makes us look bad.

Im not doing that, people stop becoming 'civallians' when they pick up rifles and start lynching unarmed police officers in a communist state.

I’d hold it happened, and given wiser handling by Zhongnanhai, the deaths could have at least been reduced or even avoided altogether, as in Shanghai.

This is blaming the response rather than the instigators that killed so many people the military had to respond.

This all comes with some level, criticizing the people who instigated the violence, which wasnt China, it was the rioters calling for 'rivers of blood' months before the protests.

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -9 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

Gaza was the Israeli response to Hamas militants (democratically supported by the people of Gaza) breaching Israeli defenses, attacking military bases, then seizing Israeli civilians as hostages.

Does Palestinian or Hamas violence justify the collateral killing of over 30,000 Palestinians and the likely famine-induced death of over 180,000 people? After all, the Gaza government's attack suggests they're no longer civilians. I think the answer is no.

Once again, the maximalist line is a trap. Dodge if you're ill-informed, if you're not, focus on how the Western media plays this up and distorts it to justify an anti-China narrative.

I'm not on the side of the protesters, in fact, I'm happy they were forcefully dispersed because that meant a hard end to liberal subversion in China, at least in the short-term. But we have to be careful about how we counter Western disinformation.

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Gaza was the Israeli response to Hamas militants (democratically supported by the people of Gaza) breaching Israeli defenses, attacking military bases, then seizing Israeli civilians as hostages.

Does Palestinian or Hamas violence justify the collateral killing of over 30,000 Palestinians and the likely famine-induced death of over 180,000 people? After all, the Gaza government’s attack suggests they’re no longer civilians. I think the answer is no.

I mean these things arent comparable, I dont think anyone would argue against the IOF considering the hamas fighters to be valid combat targets when they started killing people. Like we can disagree with the ideology of the IOF while still recongising they had some cassius bell to open fire on armed combatents.

No it doesnt, but it isnt relevant to what we're discussing. If hamas won the war, then a splinter group of hamas fighters started killing Palestine police officers who are unarmed id have more of an issue with it.

[–] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -4 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

As Communists, do we really have to obsess over blood-for-blood violence? Applying this to the Brits justifies the complete genocide of the British people, given the starvation that occurred in India during colonialism.

I'm currently in China. Defending the party goes as far as saying "if the Party had a secure way to avoid civilian deaths without compromising the Revolution, it would have done so, but it had no choice. The loss of life is truly regrettable, on both sides." We don't need to say the protesters deserved it (although Chai Ling probably did, but she got out without a scratch.)

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

The loss of life is truly regrettable, on both sides.” We don’t need to say the protesters deserved it (although Chai Ling probably did, but she got out without a scratch.)

Thats a good way to put it honestly, but yeah I wouldnt go as far as to say 'they deseved it' but more, what did they expect to happen?

You lynch a police officer who didnt have a gun you better expect the military to get involved, where is the sympathy for the dead civil servants who where making good faith attempts at peacefully de-escelating the situation?

As Communists, do we really have to obsess over blood-for-blood violence? Applying this to the Brits justifies the complete genocide of the British people, given the starvation that occurred in India during colonialism.

Im really not obsessed over it, just if in a communist state you have rioters killing people 'die by the sword' starts to become a reality, you cant take a life and expect a peacefull response by any state. Personal accountability for the protestors exists as much as it did for the state in this situation.

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -7 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

What about the comrades who fight brutal and racist cops in America or Europe? Ideally, the persons responsible for the violence should be sent to Reform-Through-Labor for a long, long period of time, if the courts don't sentence them to death.

Use of the military only shows that Zhongnanhai was really scared, and that the protests had gotten out of control.

Anyways, I'd like to end it here and leave you the last word, as we are really deep in the comment chain. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to refine my thoughts on this subject.

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 4 weeks ago

What about the comrades who fight brutal and racist cops in America or Europe?

People over here moan so hard they support arresting 10,000's of peacefull protestors before they even leave there houses lol.

Like thats what im getting at really, the public would be fully behind any state repression. And yeah if I was a communist, in a communist country, and my civil servants are being lynched?

I wouldnt expect anything but de-escelation, but lets not be naive and suggest the CPC should have done nothing in response, people had guns and where killing indiscriminatly, it had stopped being a protest and looked more like a coup.

Where that line gets drawn ultimtely comes down to is ideology, im not giving my life for a liberal project, I do support socialists.

[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 4 weeks ago

Talks about "us"

Insists on Optics above understanding and reality

Acts as if there are a million contradictory narratives so we should just go with the mainstream (western) narrative.

3 day old account

🤔

[–] miz@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

the CPC censors news of 6/4

oh is that why it's easily findable on Baidu? western chauvinist garbage

The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie | Mango Press

Another View of Tiananmen | Red Sails

[+] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -8 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children)

I'm in China, and please enter the search query that produces results on the Tiananmen Incident of 1989.

天安门事件 links me to the peaceful protests of 1976. I guess I can search Baike, but this is not a subject for common discussion.

wapbaike.baidu.com/search/none?word=六四&pn=0&rn=10

I do admire your enthusiasm for protecting China against defamation, but there is a difference between useful support and going too far.

I am willing to admit that I am wrong, however. There are mentions of a 64 Tiananmen incident on Baidu, but nothing that specifically focuses on the event. I would like you to point me to search strings on Baidu that clearly focuses on and presents an official line on the Tiananmen demonstrations that ended on June 4th, 1989.

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

https://www.gov.cn/zwgk/2011-11/09/content_1989024.htm it's report number 590.

[–] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yeah, looks like a bunch of State Council publications dating to 1989 around the time of the incident.

实事求是?

If you had guidance from the Foreign Ministry on the topic, it'd be better. I'll go over it tomorrow, it's late.

Thanks for the link!

[–] miz@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Jake Sullivan is in China too, I wouldn't take his fucking word for anything

[–] farmer_of_song@lemmygrad.ml -4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Screenshot it if you can find results on Baidu. I see some ancillary results discussing how production etc was disrupted by 6-4, but nothing discussing the incident itself, although I still need to go through the State Council logs.

Basically, in parts of the left-wing community, there's a tendency to overidolize China, when China itself admits that Mao was 30% wrong, and considers itself a developing country that is still searching for solutions.

The problem is, if you become completely divorced from reality, you impede your capability for praxis, and set yourself up for disappointment and alienation from the movement ("they lied to me!") if you step foot here and stay for extended periods of time.

I'd consider unsustainable "ultra" beliefs wrecker behavior by hostile forces, when there is already a lot to admire in China, just as there are things to reasonably gripe about.

[–] miz@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago

freeze-peach

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