Today I stumbled across a weird corner of Twitter, where a ton of ostensibly conservative Christian women and men were trying to debate incels and RedPill bros using facts and logic, talking about how they shouldn't shame single mothers or promote having extramarital affairs as "high value" men, and how a TikTok trad wife was a larp of a real adoring wife--who may just have a career and have been intimate with someone else before them.
The women were also trying to redefine an "alpha" as a man who could control his sexual urges and stay faithful and kind, and were criticizing guys worshipping that kicker guy for his commencement speech, saying that if they wanted a homemaker wife they needed to be bringing in his kind of salary. Hell, all the worst fears of misogynist chuds, like how a woman won't date you unless you made 6 figures or had a good body, were things these conservative women were unapologetically saying they expected their husband to have, whereas most secular and liberal women I know would never criticize their partner on those grounds.
And then there were the "nice" Christian men who were showing themselves caring for their wives and trying to insist to incels that this was not "beta simping," along with women criticizing pastors who said DV was not grounds for divorce. All the while incel chuds, for as much as we know they hate feminists, were whining that conservative women were actually the "most disobedient" and likely trying to hide their past promiscuity behind their newfound conservativism. Hell they were even arguing to Mike Cernovich of all people that all women who partied in college were irredeemable.
Not to say these anti-redpill women were totally woke or whatever, they were usually transphobic, pro-Israel, anti-abortion, and claiming incel/redpill stuff was "just as bad as feminism," but my takeaways are:
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This redpill/incel/trad shit is tearing the conservative Christian community apart and giving their men brainworms too, the educated and family oriented women of the community are actually unhappy with this trend and the potential partners it's yielding, and unhappy with the female incel-pandering grifters facilitating their marginalization. That is not to mention the precipitous decline of conservative male church attendance.
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The ideal man as described by a lot of conservative women is actually the "beta soy lib" archetype who isn't dogmatic about gender roles and is unafraid to show kindness, provided he knows how to shoot a gun/do yardwork. A left/lib female-attracted person who made videos unapologetically espousing their belief in respect and equality in partnerships, in their own terms, might draw as many conservative women fans as they do trad/incel men enemies. A lot of the talking points we on the left find trite and self-evident would be eye opening in some places if they were just articulated again.
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These anti-misogyny conservative women are fighting a losing battle and they don't admit it to themselves yet, because they keep quoting scripture to justify their entitlement to male fidelity and gentleness, while the scripture was still designed by men to let married men get away with everything from DV to child SA.
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These conservative Christian women go at this new wave of misogyny harder than the left does, because the left oftentimes subconsciously steer away from these online spaces for fear of being ratioed and triggered and these women don't have that fear because they are still kind of, psychologically speaking, fighting with their ingroup. It's similar to how the current libertarian presidential candidate was the only guy who appeared on right wing podcasts to unapologetically defend drag queen story hour and trans-friendly bathrooms.
Thoughts? (Also, feel free to repost this anywhere if you like.)
I might reply in greater detail tomorrow but for now all I would say to these people who are dismayed at their newfound "allies" is: no shit. There's a reason we found them loathsome shitty people and it's not just because we disagree with their politics and their irony tinged fascism. Their ideas are toxic corrosive bullshit. They are complete nihilistic misanthropes. It comes across as misogyny but it's also a full blown hatred of themselves and everything around them. Born straight out of the most miserable pit of hate the internet spawned: 4chan. A place so awful that it's hallmark was dragging each other down so they could find a twisted glee in sharing misery and being awful. There is nothing constructive to be found in that place. It spawned school shooters, trafficked in CSAM, launched harassment campaigns, stalking. There was nothing to be gained by allowing yourself to be caught agreeing with them on any subject. There is no "broken clock is right twice a day" with them. The clock is never right.
Reap the whirlwind.
I agree, it was a devil's bargain to bring these people into their fold through astroturfing shit like Fresh N Fit. I also feel like more left leaning equality minded men should be unapologetically espousing their beliefs in their ideal equitable relationship and support for women and not be cowed by fears of being called a simp, which I believe they are because even the best of us have internalized toxic masculinity.
"Devil's bargain" is a good way of putting it. I do hope it causes some of these non-incel types to wake up. They're challenging the Nietschean abyss to a staring contest.
Is this a thing? Do younger guys who aren't incels actually worry about this?
I don't think they consciously do, but subconsciously I think a lot of lib/left men are afraid of wading into that corner of the internet and getting spammed/harassed/written off. Part of that is that such men typically recite talking points and arguments provided by women and sometimes detached from the theory-of-mind of how to frame arguments to be received by misanthropic chud men, so they get written off/steamrolled faster.
I think back to how Stone Cold Steve Austin's very profanity-filled redneck-sounding tirade supporting gay marriage probably moved the needle for its acceptance more than a ton of "Love is Love" stuff at the time that just doesn't hit with some people, even repels them. Most of the men I've seen who boldly push back against misogynistic myths about women "hitting the wall," body counts, men dating down etc. in the lions dens of inceldom/redpill shit are actually evopsych STEMlords like Slate Star Codex. Idk if leftists think we're over that shit or what but we should start doing it again undeterred.
The only way I’ve ever gotten through to average men is by just saying what I believe and disregarding their response and calling them soft handed, so you’re probably on to something with that Steve Austin thing.
Yeah, for all the libs' subservience to respectability politics and tone over substance, they can't seem to understand that tone and framing can outweigh actual message when trying to argue their social values. If this generation had even libertarian crap similar to Penn and Teller: Bullshit! a lot more men would be calling other men the r-slur for not supporting abortion and gay/trans rights, which while upsetting is better than them using it to be chuds.