politics

Hell, all the worst fears of misogynist chuds, like how a woman won't date you unless you made 6 figures or had a good body, were things these conservative women were unapologetically saying they expected their husband to have

Fascist women are like the unsung heroes of toxic masculinity, they'll just be like yeah of course you have to beat our nonverbal toddler for disrespecting you, or did I marry a fucking pussy

The men spend the entire day at the patriarchy factory and their wives get half that much work done with one remark

This is very interesting though not surprising to me. I grew up in evangelical church ("full gospel," though idk if anyone here would recognize that flavor), and this is the sort of stuff I would hear adults discussing regularly.

I remember my much older sister having a passionate debate with some of the other church ladies about whether it was okay for women to masturbate - is it Onanism if you have no seed to sinfully cast on the ground?? 😂 my sister was a former stripper and was not about to let Jesus take her vibrator.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much hope that these disagreements will effectively split this community. These have been subjects of debate for decades, and the risk of losing that community usually outweighs anyone's discomfort with the roles they're forced into.

PS - I love your username 🤩

I might reply in greater detail tomorrow but for now all I would say to these people who are dismayed at their newfound "allies" is: no shit. There's a reason we found them loathsome shitty people and it's not just because we disagree with their politics and their irony tinged fascism. Their ideas are toxic corrosive bullshit. They are complete nihilistic misanthropes. It comes across as misogyny but it's also a full blown hatred of themselves and everything around them. Born straight out of the most miserable pit of hate the internet spawned: 4chan. A place so awful that it's hallmark was dragging each other down so they could find a twisted glee in sharing misery and being awful. There is nothing constructive to be found in that place. It spawned school shooters, trafficked in CSAM, launched harassment campaigns, stalking. There was nothing to be gained by allowing yourself to be caught agreeing with them on any subject. There is no "broken clock is right twice a day" with them. The clock is never right.

Reap the whirlwind.

Seems tough being a Conservative Christian woman. Although to be fair, the incel movement is complete cancer that any "real traditionalist" would find abhorrent. It is not surprising to me at all. I grew up in a "traditional" global south family, the kind where half of my family members refuse to eat onion or garlic and consider it sinful and where 3-4 generations often live together. And if I acted or spoke even 10% as "degenerately" as these incel/manosphere types do, I would have been kicked out immediately.

Incels and red pillers basically come into the movement because they want nothing more than pure material benefit (sex + free labour from women). Conservative culture is often based on the same goal of ultimately getting material benefits on women's expense, but it is always dressed up in traditions and rituals and moralising. The traditional family members I was talking about aren't really the "good guys" when it came to women, but I suppose that at least the drive for respectability made them act much better than incels ever will.

Unfortunately, I don't think conservatives can ever fight against the incel movement in a way that is actually effective. The incels genuinely believe in all of the Conservative values, they just so happen to not give a shit about the optics of it.

As for Conservative women, they are in the tough spot that as women, they don't actually want the same things as the incels do (at least not when applied to them specifically). However the incel ideology is nothing more than the Conservative ideology but applied with less shame. So you end up with this situation.

My takeaway from this thread is that it's our duty as leftists to fuck church ladies

All joking aside, and I'm 100% serious, incel/redpill shit is corrosive to society and anyone espousing it should have to spend 3 years in a reeducation camp

There’s always been a paradox within cultural conservatism where there’s a bloc of hedonists who think the movement will stop the nanny state and pushy feminists from getting in the way of them having a good time, and another bloc that very much so likes the state telling people what to do with their lives. Incels have turned out to be the former larping as the latter. Evangelism as a Pepe/bearded chad meme.

That being said, I think there’s a similarity in both the incels and the evangelical women in that they’re both chasing contradictory ideals in a partner. Incels want women who are meek and submissive, virginal but also will fuck like a porn star on their wedding night, genuflecting to their patriarchal leadership but also not expecting that leadership to do any leading. They idolize being traditional breadwinners but also really hate the idea of women expecting them to be breadwinners; don’t have a job but also if you think I’m going to have a job and pay for things then you’re a gold digger.

Evangelical women, likewise, think they can have this relationship dynamic where men are given the most petty tyrant role possible but then don’t ever act as tyrants. The men must be in control of everything but also those women don’t want to feel like they’re being controlled by the men.

The fundamental problem with both of them is they aren’t seeking relationships with another adult, they want a parental relationship in the dressings of an adult relationship. Incels want a mommy they can fuck, who will be there to wipe their ass and ensure they always have choccy milk and chicken tendies while they play CoD but don’t expect anything in return. Also explains their virgin/w***e complex taken to a toxic extreme, they think they can have both at the same time. Evangelical women want a daddy, a benevolent father figure who ensures all the messy, scary details of adulthood are taken care of, but expect that power to never corrupt.

I am conerned that if we introduce them to Feminist concepts we may end up with nazi feminists. : |

This tension has been in the conservative movement ever since Breitbart fused the two together.

I can't imagine trying to, as a woman, get an incel to relent on their bread and butter. It's like if you came to hexbear trying to espouse how harmful Mao is to good landlords. We hate landlords as a treat. We see their pain, morbidity, and mortality and rejoice. So when a woman says something like they've "matured out of their old ways." it's like if you or I heard someone on hexbear say something like "I've become more lenient towards my tenants." If you're huffing 4chan, a big part of that is target practice on talking points like "alpha fucks, beta buxx," infidelity, and hypergamy. They have a treasure trove of instances where some woman says that their man relented on a masculine role and they got the ick or how they got into a dead bedroom situation. You can try to tip toe around it all you want, but you're fighting for the losing side if you try to influence them to see it your way instead of their most core, foundational beliefs. In essence, access to the same Internet they use themselves already raises a flag because their potential partner might have had access to dating apps, ideas about independence, and psychological health resources. When the ideal is a farm raised, 18 year old (lmao), blonde, virgin whose homeschooling never mentioned what a city looks like, you're never going to win with a gotcha like "have you tried being nice and direct?" or "who cares 4chan thinks?" Those were the final off ramps and if they've missed those then all you can do is shrug your shoulders. You're better off saying "well, congratulations to Chad on being one of God's chosen few" as this is the final conclusion of all Calvinist belief systems.

that kicker guy for his commencement speech

i had to look this up. i cannot wrap my mind around a liberal arts school inviting a late 20s guy, who is lavished with lotto money for sometimes being called in to ritualistically kick a ball on TV, to talk to young people about to start their professional lives / careers. absolutely the least qualified motherfucker on the planet from the jump. the fact that he's a Tier 1 douche bro dipshit should have been spotted from a mile away.

anyway, more to the general thesis of the post (re: women in conservative affinity groups confronting overt misogyny jerks)... it seems like the problem has been around for a while, but the tensions are heightened, which could be an artifact of seeing these discussions happen online, where people just totally pop off unlike IRL. i say this because i was raised in an evangelical community until i separated from it in the late 90s. it's taken decades to unpack a lot of the values and false self-conceptions i was indoctrinated with, but i remember in the 2000s when i was a single guy, trying to figure myself out and not wanting to be on my own. i wasn't dead set against christianity and values of sacrifice and tolerance etc., so i tried considering "church" as simply a heterodox community that maybe i could exist in and find someone who shared these values.

my experiences and my friends' reports of casually showing up to a "young" church / event to scope it out was that it was a meat market / matchmaking ritual for young singles with a high ratio of women to men. like a well lit daytime night club, in that there was a cohort that was there to find a man and all they cared about was that the guy wasn't an asshole or a drunk. the vibe was one where it felt like all the messaging being dumped on these young, single women was that the only place to find "a good man" was their church. and even back then, the odds were not good for young single women.

i can definitely imagine in the last 20 years with overall attendance down and the contradiction of trying to exist as a human in an evangelical community adding more tension that conservative communities would become even more conflicted and contested as spaces for negotiating matches/pair-bonding.

American religion has always been a shit show. You had various colonies established with wildly different beliefs and state churches. Part of the reason for freedom of religion on the federal level was as a political compromise to make sure a state's church wasn't developed above others; at the time it was relatively common for inter-Christian wars to take place. Over time after the country was founded, this allowed for free market Jesus to form.

If you wanted to make a weird religion that was vaguely Christian, you went to the USA. This is why there are so many types of Christian church that were founded in the USA compared to other countries. This meant that pastors could sell whatever bullshit they wanted to in order to get coverts. You didn't need to follow a national religious canon because there was no nationally imposed canon. Church leaders could make up what they wanted.

So now, as there is a push to lead to actual American Christian Fascism, no one really knows what that means. You've got churches and other organizations used to making their own sales pitches now being forced to agree on a common canon and set of laws and they aren't used to this outside of agreeing that abortion is bad and civil rights need to not progress. Incels probably stick out the most, but these debates are going to become a lot more pronounced even among different conservative Christian groups and within those groups as the sales pitches to the different groups push wildly different goals.

Very ironic when their lord and savior was (allegedly) a volcel

were whining that conservative women were actually the "most disobedient" and likely trying to hide their past promiscuity behind their newfound conservativism.

Patriots, is it degnerate to be conservative?

its been a little while since we had an incel terrorist attack. there were a few of them in the mid 2010s but havent heard of any recently. Did something change there?

It seems like these conservative Christian women were more Christian than conservative. They want to go to church and believe in God and then all the reactionary crap is just something that goes with it.

On the other hand there could be conservative Christian men who are more conservative than Christian. What they really want is to be fascist pricks and the church stuff is just something they do because it is seen as part of the package.

Maybe some of these conservative Christian women wouldn't be conservative at all if there was a healthier form of Christianity available to them?

If reactionary Christians can cherry pick all the nasty parts of the Bible and use them to justify their fascist ideology while ignoring all the good stuff, why is there so few based Christians who ignore the nasty parts and stick to all the good stuff about healing the sick and casting out the moneylenders and that kind of stuff? (I wouldn't be surprised if nasty Christianity is so prevalent because of shady oligarchs promoting it as an alternative to proletarian politics)