i've been upsetting people by opposing the "it's not our choice" argument for like... 15 years or something. when i was a teen it really didn't land well with people. but i've seen a general movement towards people rejecting the argument in the past few years which i'm relieved about.

i very much agree that it concedes there is something wrong with being queer, that we wouldn't choose to be if we had a choice.

but even more than that i think it misses the point. choice means something very different to the people we're trying to reach with that argument. i mainly see those people as conservative christians, mainly american ones. and the thing is that they don't give a fuck what sexual or gender urges we have. their worldview is entirely different. it's based on seeking an ideal godly life based around a monogamous union between a man and a woman, having children and raising them in that same ideology.

they think queer feelings are sinful. but they have a general view of anything outside of their ideology is sinful. sex before marriage, infidelity, divorce, polyamory, even perfectly consensual and open polyamory, porn, and so on.

given how utterly commonplace and unsurprising each time we hear about a prominent conservative christian doing something "sinful", it seems obvious they have plenty of urges to do things they consider sinful. the choice for them is suppress these urges to live a godly life. they understand perfectly well that we're reacting to something we feel inside that we have no control over, but they want us to choose to do what they consider to be the right thing, and who cares if it makes us unhappy.

so i simply think that it's trying to use a liberal argument to people who just don't see the world like that. and yes, i think it's a very lib argument. look at us poor people who have this unfortunate condition but you have to be nice to us because it's not our fault.

i am queer. i am trans. i am intersex. these things are an intrinsic part of me, and i choose to embrace them. it's true there is no place for me in normal society. i couldn't pretend to be one of them if i wanted to. but why the hell would i want to be a part of a society that won't accept those cool and important parts of me, not to mention all of the evil shit it's build upon. it is of course unfortunate that makes life harder for me but i want my life. a queer life for me is loving who i want of course, but it's so much more than that as well. it's rejecting the heteropatriarchal norms of cishet society in the way i live and relate to others.

to conclude this comment which accidentally turned into an essay (sorry), i simply don't think it works. if we want conservative christians to accept us we need to target their beliefs about the family, and the concept of sin in general. unless we can change that, we're not going to make any progress with them.

imo i don't think it's a choice but if it was i would pick being queer in a heartbeat

I don't think it matters if it's a choice or not. Like if someone chooses to be queer, why not, it shouldn't invalidate their identity. It also shouldn't matter for availability of healthcare. Like if a cis person can get gender affirming surgery/treatment just because they chose to, then why not trans people.

I don't think it's a choice, people can be born queer (I was born outside the gender binary)

When I was a dumb bi teenager I thought that everyone was actually bi and consciously making the choice to be straight or gay. Like, it struck me as absurd that there would be people who were truly unattracted to an entire sex. The fact that I only pursued relationships with women despite my attractions meant that all straight people were making that same decision, and likewise gay people could choose not to be gay.

Anyways that was really fuckin stupid of me.

Have always thought it a bad argument for the reasons others have said. Like, I didn't think it was a choice, but if it was, I'd choose to be queer. Just thought I unfortunately wasn't.

I feel like choice isn’t an all or nothing thing. Repression has become less and less of an option over time. The repression cycles were becoming shorter and more intense. The choice to repress became harder to make and harder to follow through on, especially once I started experimenting. And that varies from person to person.

My brother was one of the “I’ve always known” people. He was throwing tantrums at age 3 about wearing dresses. He never had a choice to repress. I’m convinced that even physical abuse wouldn’t have stopped him. My parents never came close to that but it wasn’t like they nurtured his transness either. They fought tooth and nail to make their kid be a girl before they learned about trans people, and even then it took a long time for them to come to terms with it. Regardless, my brother didn’t “live as a girl” for more than a couple years of his life. He wouldn’t have it.

Me on the other hand, I didn’t even have a suspicion until my mid 20’s and I think if I didn’t have as supportive of a partner as I did, as well as r/chapotraphouse and later this place, I’d still be closeted even to myself. If I’d been born into a more conservative family, I’d probably be one of those over-the-top transphobes who are displacing a bunch of self-hatred. Essentially, I had more choices along my journey to get where I am. My brother was fighting for survival from the moment his brain was able to process gender. We had very different choices to make.