this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2023
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[–] DreamAccountant@lemmy.world 50 points 11 months ago (3 children)

They're not dumping 'pandemic puppies', they're dumping the pitbulls that nobody wants. Breeders for dog fighting are pumping out dogs nobody wants because they're reactive, dangerous, and have the ability to kill a human being, then maul them.

Shelters are full of them. So desperate to get rid of them, shelters underplay their aggressiveness and danger. This puts the general population at risk. The UK just passed a new set of laws against more breeds of pitbulls, and rightfully so. You can see all the evidence they used to make their decision. It's gory and sad. So many people's lives, and smaller dogs, gone forever.

[–] frickineh@lemmy.world 55 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It's not just for dog fighting. It's backyard breeders who are hoping to make a quick buck, so they get the easiest dogs they can access, which is almost always pits, sell the puppies for whatever they can get, and then dump any of the ones they can't sell. I see them constantly on nextdoor, and it's appalling. And the kind of people who buy pit puppies from some rando are also the kind of people who dump them when they get too big and "oh we can't keep up with their energy."

[–] ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yep, this is the answer. Tons of people are trying to cash in on dog breeding like beaniebabies. Frenchies, pitties (including XXL toadline monstrosities), random mixes, etc. Breeding rights, stud fees, etc. are big business and essentially none of these "breeders" have any clue what they're doing.

In the vast majority of places in the US, there are no requirements or certifications needed to breed dogs. And now people will pay insane amounts of money for frenchies with rare coat colors, or pitbulls that are bred solely to be huge and squat with concern about temperament or health; so irresponsible, backyard breeders who either ignore or are completely ignorant of proper breeding practice and refuse to get or can't afford proper genetic testing and medical care for their animals, are breeding for phenotypes like coat color or being insanely huge and squat and breeding in bad congenital defects and abnormalities.

Then either buyers are stuck with these shitty, genetically fucked up dogs they paid like $5k for that now need thousands more in veterinary care to treat all the issues bred into the dog (not to mention parvo, parasites, and whatever else these often unclean facilities transmit to puppies). Or the breeder's little operation collapses when they realize that they can't afford to continue operating their shitty operation. But, it's usually the first one because there are no shortage of buyers willing to pay stupid amounts of money and trust the "breeders" because they assume they're experts.

So people often end up dumping the dogs when they realize they can't care for them medically or are aggressive or whatever else, while backyard breeders continue to pump out fucked up dogs for profit.

[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 9 points 11 months ago

Yup. It needs to be a crime punishable by fines and prison time. The average lifetime cost of owning a dog can be as high as $50,000. Use that as a baseline for fining people who breed dogs while shelters are turning them away.

[–] Rolder@reddthat.com 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I take a look at my local shelter every now and then and it’s full of pit bulls and pit mixes.

[–] Drusas@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Pitbulls, pit mixes, and the occasional incredibly neurotic Chihuahua (rated the most aggressive breed when individual dog owners have been surveyed on their own dogs' behaviors).

[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think there's a link to owner training for the chihuahua thing. The smaller the dog is, the less an owner is likely to train them. They don't think they have to.

[–] Drusas@kbin.social 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If that where the reason, we would see a lot more complaints about dogs like dachshunds and pugs. Though I do think you're right that there is something specific about many people who choose to get Chihuahuas which involves them being the sort of irresponsible owner who doesn't do any training and treats it like an ornament rather than an animal.

[–] KRAW@linux.community 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

Do you have a link to any stats? There seem to be two sides to this debate, where one side insists that these breeds are inherently aggressive and the other side insists it isn't true. I'm more inclined to believe to believe the former in my personal experience, but have always wanted something other than anecdotal to confirm.

[–] ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Be mindful when reading the sources. This is a very polarizing debate, and it isn't really as clear as "pitbulls are little angelbaby velvethippos" or "pitbulls are vicious killing machines".

Pitbull is a range of phenotypes, not a breed. What we call pitbulls commonly are a mix of boxers, Am Staffs, bulldogs, american pit bull terriers, bull terriers, etc. So, we're relying on police to ID these dogs after an attack has been reported, and so a large number of aggressive individuals of a variety of breeds/mutts might get lumped into "pitbull" by cops.

Also, dog attacks are more likely to occur in lower socioeconomic status neighborhoods where dog ownership practices are often less responsible, and cops are more likely to be in the first place. Pitbull-type dogs are more likely to be owned by lower SES individuals (in part because they're so prevalent, but also due to cultural factors). So, it is likely that pitbull-type dogs are overrepresented by these statistics.

That said, it is wild that people claim that breeding does not impact behavior. Pitbulls and various bully breeds have often been bred to be aggressive and to guard territory, just like Cattle Dogs have been bred to nip at heels and keep creatures in a herd. Any cattle dog owner will tell you that their dog exhibits herding behavior even if it's never seen a cow or sheep. It's the same with some pitbulls and they happen to have the strongest bite force of any type of dog coupled with a behavior where they latch on to the thing they've bitten and won't let go, but will continue to thrash around causing major tissue damage. Contrast that to German Shepherds, another dog that makes up a large number of dog bite cases. Their bite force is much less than that of a pitbull and most German Shepherd bites are fear-aggression related because GSDs are extremely neurotic and anxious (also due to breeding), so GSDs tend to bite and release unless they're specifically bite trained, like for police work.

So anyway, just be aware that both sides of this debate try to put spin on it, but breed characteristics do matter, and our recordkeeping of dog breeds and bite statistics is flawed essentially due to the problems extant in law enforcement broadly.

[–] KRAW@linux.community 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

For sure. I am not one of those people insistent on all pits being bad for the reasons you state (over-representation in statistics), but I also cannot believe that there isn't some inclination for pits to exhibit aggressive behavior. I probably will never adopt a pit, but I have a friend who owns one (or a similar breed... not quite sure) but I love that dog.

[–] ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago

For sure! I know a few pitties, too, and they are good dogs. It's very much a "law of large numbers" type of thing. Likely more aggressive on average, but the answer is probably not breed bans and more likely restrictions on who can breed dogs (and maybe who can own certain dogs).

[–] Instigate@aussie.zone 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This is a very well-thought and considered take. I usually sit on the side of not banning specific dog breeds as I’m yet to see compelling statistics to back up such a ban, or numbers on dog attacks where breed bans have been put in place that shows it works. Your point is very valid though that because this is such an emotional debate, people on both sides have a tendency to exaggerate their positions. I would really like to see compelling statistics one way or the other, as I feel at the moment a lot of this debate is being held in unscientific territory.

As a husky owner, I can definitely attest that different breeds have specific behavioural phenotypes associated with their breed’s genotype. My husky acts just like all of her husky friends which is pretty different to all of the other dogs we know of different breeds. I just don’t know that this factor outweighs the owner’s responsibility in raising and training them well. Even within a single breed, there’s often significant variation.

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[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The stats are easily manipulated by either side. The fact of the matter is that, given the number of attacks on humans and animals by pit bulls, and the average age of pits, roughly 1 in 10,000 pits will attack something in their life. This is an order of magnitude more frequent than rottweilers (the next most dangerous breed), and when a pit bull attacks, it's more likely to kill its victim than any other dog breed.

1 in 10,000 is large enough for some people to say the whole breed needs to be euthanized, it's small enough for some people to say that it's negligible, and it's at just the right spot for me to say that it should be illegal to breed them, but existing ones shouldn't be euthanized.

[–] Mamertine@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/dog-attack-statistics-breed/

Dog Attack Statistics by Breed

Many dog advocates argue that there is no such thing as a bad breed, only a bad owner. Still, it can be helpful to understand which breeds of dogs are most commonly involved in bite incidents or acts of aggression. Dog attacks by breed statistics are invaluable both for individuals looking for a dog to adopt as well as for those who interact with animals who want to minimize risk.

The breed that commits the most attacks overall is pit bulls.

Pit bulls are involved in more dog attacks than any other breed. In fact, the American Animal Hospital Association reports this breed was responsible for 22.5% of bites across all studies. Mixed breeds were a close second at 21.2% and German Shepherds were the third most dangerous breed, involved in 17.8% of bite incidents.⁶

The breed that is most likely to be involved in a fatal attack is pit bulls.

Pit bulls are both more likely to be involved in bite incidents and more likely to cause serious injury or death when a bite does occur. In fact, from 1979 to 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention determined pit bulls were involved in the most fatal dog attacks, accounting for 28% deaths due to dog bites during that same time period.⁷

I'll add, I like pitties. I'll also advise taking this with a grain of salt as so many mixed breed dogs fall into the pitbull umbrella.

[–] Smoogs@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8819838/ that still seems to find it may be more the human influence on a breed(or mixed breed dog as it were) than manifested in the breed itself.

An important finding was Pit Bull-type dogs in our community sample, as a group, were not more aggressive or likely to have a behavioral diagnosis than other dogs. As the nascent field of canine behavior advances, it will be important to better account for human influences on dog behavior. Our results showed genetic screening of canine behavior is feasible and suggest it may be useful for owners, breeders, shelters, working dog institutions and veterinarians.

If you were to compare the findings of the direct connection of anxiety, many smaller dogs have this but we as large humans tend to dismiss this in smaller dogs. The only reason we really focus into the pit bull is the association we’ve developed and the size. Also larger dogs are usually trained in defence. Less so with smaller dogs which also suffer with anxiety. No doubt a lot of owners get the ideal that they want to get a pit bull to install fear into other humans as a form of protection. this is a human introduction of a behavior.

Anecdotally my family owned many dogs. Sometimes we’d get a litter where two dogs behaved very differently to each other. We inherited many dogs with behavioural problems because of human error and the breed didn't make a difference so much as size definitely did amongst the decisions many people made. No one wants to keep a large dog with behavioural issues. Why people associate it with pit bulls is mainly because statistically they are more prone to treat that particular breed (and in many cases any breed that looks associated to the pit bull) in such a way that installs more anxiety. That is a human error. Not a breed error.

[–] Instigate@aussie.zone 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Are those statistics weighted against breed prevalence? Because if not, those data aren’t really telling us anything significant. If pit bulls as a breed are overrepresented statistically, that would be a significant finding. Looking at the source material for the claim here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165587618305950 doesn’t clearly state if the numbers are per capita of dog breed or if they’re just sheer numbers of attacks, regardless of prevalence of breed. Do you have a source that evaluates the statistics in such a manner?

[–] Lavitz@lemmings.world 5 points 11 months ago

This should be higher. I would be interested to know more about the actual numbers. A quick search also showed shelters are not good at accurately identifying breeds.

[–] restingboredface@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago

Couple of issues with this data. 1- People are much more likely to report bites from larger dogs (since they cause injury that requires medical treatment and reporting is done automatically) 2- Any stats by design are going to be correlational evidence and do not guarantee causality so it's not at all clear that rate of bites by pits are higher or just more frequently reported because they are pits or because they are so common . 3- As others have pointed out pits are more likely to be found in lower SES homes where resources for training, toys and healthy outlets for dog energy like time for long, regular walks and playtime is less readily accessible. 4-Breeds most associated with aggression are most likely to be treated by humans in ways that incite dogs' anxiety, which is a precursor to aggressive behavior.

I think that pitties are just the victim of really bad press. Once it became common knowledge that they were used in dog fighting, it became part of what everyone "knows" about pits. It creates a self fulfilling prophecy by seeing only results they expect rather than thinking about why they expected to see it in the first place.

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[–] YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world 40 points 11 months ago (6 children)

Mohawk Hudson, for instance, has a lot of pit bulls, mastiffs and cane corsos.

Seems to be a lot of aggressive breeds of dogs, which are becoming banned throughout the nation. That might be more of the problem.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 25 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeahhhh these people aren't poor, they just want puppies, not dogs.

[–] qooqie@lemmy.world 20 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Puppies are the worst idk who prefers them over trained adult dogs

[–] Laticauda@lemmy.ca 20 points 11 months ago

A lot of people do not understand how much work puppies take to own and raise. They think they're just smaller cuter versions of adult dogs.

[–] JonnyBlaze@sh.itjust.works 16 points 11 months ago

Same kind of idiots that think having a child will fix their relationships.

[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 months ago

You gotta remember that half of all people are stupider than the average person, and it only takes like the dumbest 10% to be like "he's not cute anymore so I don't want him" for shelters to start filling up

[–] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 13 points 11 months ago

yeah, you never see glut of doodles sittin in shelter

[–] punkcoder@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago

People who don't know what they are getting into, and as soon as they encounter a situation of their own creating... they bail because its hard. Pit bull owner (AST rescue mutt), they are not a beginner breed, they require ensuring that there is a hierarchy in the house and force an understanding of that. They are stubborn, hard headed, and amazing dogs (Tiptoe is a hurricane of tongues). We have a 6 yo at home, and I have to force his training and training for her. It's a lot of work, and most people are allergic to work when it becomes inconvenient to them.

Aggression is something that is there genetically and you have to work against it. Again that's work, but you will find that any dog that hasn't been traumatized (and some that have... again love my tip) leans naturally to happiness, not aggression.

Short answer is that people are awful, and because of that most of the time the dog suffers. That should be recognized for what it is.

Bonus... Pit Love: https://ibb.co/yVRW1Zh

[–] Montagge@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Lol neither cane corso or mastiff are an aggressive breed.

[–] Fiivemacs@lemmy.ca 16 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Mastiffs are extremely protective of their owners and it gives people the impression they are aggressive. Same with the Cane Corso. Both dogs are more defensive then aggressive, but the potential is still there especially when owned by people who easily dump dogs. You know they didn't bother training them which is the main issue

[–] TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social 2 points 11 months ago

They are also large dogs that can be 60-100+ pounds each, which for a lot of people is too much dog. It seems a case of people looking at a cute puppy and not researching what a full grown version looks like. People do the same thing with iguanas and fish too.

[–] LilB0kChoy@midwest.social 1 points 11 months ago

I feel bad for the dogs but those breeds need experienced, capable owners.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 6 points 11 months ago (30 children)

The pit bull discussion never ends. Pit bulls are like guns: objectively bad for society but some people really want to have them so we all have to suffer the consequences. Pit bull lovers don't care about all the victims, they only care about their personal needs and "rights". You can't convince someone not to be selfish so the entire discussion doesn't make any sense.

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[–] Cannacheques@slrpnk.net 1 points 11 months ago

Noooo such cute doggies why??? 😭

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