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Most people in capitalist countries never leave the economic bracket they were born into. Capitalism is a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
Capitalism is a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
As is China. As was the USSR.
What you've described is just humans, not capitalism. Alas.
The human nature argument is not an argument at all because everything we do is 'human nature'. What is far more evident is that humans will adapt to their environment to succeed or find a way to change the environment, and so when you have a system which promotes certain behaviours it is 'nature' to follow them and act in a certain way to take advantage, or to find a way to change the environment they are in.
This is such a one dimensional view of 'human nature' because you should need to define what it is before you make such a statement. Why is greed any more human nature than care and empathy? It's almost always been projection or ignorance when I hear people say that 'capitalism is human nature.' There will always be sociopaths and psychopaths, but why then have a system that promotes the worst traits of humanity at the expense of the rest rather than one that serves to find the greatest benefit for the most people? You act like greedy and corrupt people can't be held down or put in check, and conveniently ignore that the environment humans are now raised in is entirely centred around poorly regulated capitalism.
This is such a one dimensional view of 'human nature' because you should need to define what it is before you make such a statement.
I didn't use the phrase 'human nature' in the comment you replied to.
Why is greed any more human nature than care and empathy?
I haven't said that it is.
when I hear people say that 'capitalism is human nature.'
I haven't said that.
So what is your point, then? That abusing power and killing people is human? Also, calling something 'human' basically is another way to describe 'human nature' since everything is human nature that one does.
You implied it
I disagree.
a very similar problem
But not the same problem. Hence your straw man.
So what is your point, then?
That primitive systems of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death, is what humans in general create, not just capitalists.
That abusing power and killing people is human?
That wasn't my original point but that is certainly true.
Just false though. You are ignoring how heavily the environment you live in impacts you. It's literally everything. Living in a hierarchic society that oppresses those below and provides massive benefits for those above just incentivises people to express greedy behaviours because otherwise they will be stuck below to suffer. If you changed the environment one lived in and was educated in, you could create a completely different outcome. It's no surprise abusive families tend to be cyclical, while it is incredibly rare somebody becomes abusive on their own. Behaviours are learned for the most part.
Also, the whole 'humans in general' is just dishonest. The people making the decisions are a minority within a minority. It's not representative of the larger population. You can say the people participating are supporting it, which is true, but even then it doesn't mean that they would want the system to be that way in the first place. For many poorer people without opportunities, they have no choice or chance to advance. It's literally rigged against them.
Abusing power and killing people are acts that humans do. But so is everything, so that isn't really even a point. Literally everything is we do is 'human'.
If you want to say 'humans in general' create these systems, then why do you think that is anyway?
Just false though.
I disagree.
If you want to say 'humans in general' create these systems, then why do you think that is anyway?
Because lying and cheating increases one's chances of survival. Hence humans lie, cheat and steal and the most "successful" people (read: richest and most powerful) are those who lie, cheat and steal the best.
This is from contemporary philosopher Martin Butler, informed by Spinoza and Schopenhauer:
Martin Butler - Corporeal Fantasy 115 (Business managers and intelligence)
But it doesn't even to serve to increase the chance of survival past a point. It becomes redundant and if anything makes you a bigger target once you get so high. Eventually, it just becomes needless greed at the expense of others and requires a lack of morals and apathy to continue on. I think the real problem is that people don't hold others accountable, and because narcissistic and psychopathic people tend to search for power, they are usually the ones ending up in the roles. The issue is that society doesn't care that it is that way, and that people have used their influence to conditions others into thinking that the system they live in is OK and not completely unjust. So yes, when people are not held accountable, the worst people climb to the top the fastest. Yet, humans have also proven that they can overcome their own instincts and also through their own work managed to make it so that modern day survival is incredibly easily for almost everyone when they didn't need to. Humans are not bound to act a certain way due to their genetics. It's usually a reaction to the system they live in and what they are told that causes their behaviours, of course certain people will always end up a certain way, but that is very rare.
But it doesn't even to serve to increase the chance of survival past a point.
The driver is not just survival of the individual but survival of their genes. That is, procreation. And there's no point in the acquisition of power at which more power stops being sexually attractive.
Have you considered human nature?
Alas, checkmate tankie 
Have you considered human nature?
Yes. That's why I said what I said.
You're right all humans are irredeemable garbage and we shouldn't try
You're right all humans are irredeemable garbage
I didn't say that.
all humans are irredeemable garbage
Are whales garbage because they indiscriminately scoop up tons of fish? No, they're surviving. In the same way, one should expect despicable behaviour from humans because surviving is very hard and often requires such behaviour.
Look at the Russians suffering in Ukraine in order to avoid the certain suffering of refusing their dictator's wishes.
we shouldn't try
Depends on what it is you're trying to do.
The "Humans" your talking about all have names. So unless you think the "peasants" are as equally responsible for their explotiation as their oppressors you should start naming names. I'll start for you. Henry Kissinger.
unless you think the "peasants" are as equally responsible for their explotiation as their oppressors you should start naming names
I have no idea what you're talking about.
No you’re wrong. The USSR was a truly more equal society, dramatically more equal, provable in the empirical sense by the Gini coefficient.
It also achieved greater long term average growth, also provable empirically by measuring the size of the economy from the revolution to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Even if you include the destruction of the apocalyptic world war 2, a vicious revolution and counter revolutionary civil war, Hitler murdering tens of millions, the Cold War which saw insane spending on military, and the poor economic performance of the 1980s following the oil shocks of the late 70s…. All of that and still it was the greatest economic growth story of the 20th century when averaged over its lifetime.
Equality is good and a choice that can be made. You are eating the propaganda of your masters when you tell yourself that it’s somehow the natural state of man. Some inevitability that must be accepted for the greater good.
It’s not inevitable and it doesn’t lead to a greater good.
No you’re wrong.
I disagree.
more equal
But still a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
Equality is ... a choice that can be made.
I don't think I can choose to be equal to others. And I don't think members of elites will reduce the likelihood of propagating their genes by choosing to make me equal to them. Because they haven't.
Some inevitability that must be accepted for the greater good.
You're confused. I don't believe it must be accepted for the geater good. I simply recognise the futility of wishing the world was not as it is: a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
It’s not inevitable
I disagree. The evidence would appear to be to the contrary.
