There's not even a shred of logic involved. It's literally just
this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2024
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in absolutely no way is he worse than Netanyahu or western leaders, but initating a war of invasion (even when provoked by encirclement) is a pretty by-the-books war crime
Not saying this is in any way comparable to the current state of affairs, but it's very easy to support one side in a war in which they're both war criminals. Just because both sides are doing things defined as war crimes doesn't make their goals unjust.
Like the Allies in WW2, the Red Army in the Russian Civil War, the Vietcong in Vietnam, etc.
The allies were absolutely unjust. They were defending the genocidal British empire. Then they were doing colonialism in west, middle, and east Asia. West Asia here being the backwater European peninsula where the allies took land from displaced jews and gave it to German people. They were a rogue faction using weapons of mass destruction to ensure favorable trade positions post war.
Allies includes the Red Army, remember
....and Chinese communists, the Chinese Nationalists, the precursors to the NVA and Vietcong, Mexico, the Korean resistance, the Filipino resistance, Brazil, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Haiti, etc.
It's a blind spot in people's understanding of WWII. The Allies was more than just France, the US, UK, and USSR. It included dozens of countries across the world, especially in Asia where the war started.
Shit you got me.
Killing Nazis is an unalloyed good.
Yeah, did we do that or did we just hire them to run nato?
First we fought a war against them, which was good given the lack of alternatives to prevent genocide in greater areas, then we forgave everything and kept those people in power, which was horrible.
You forgot about us supporting them before that. The big nazi rally in new York. All the US businesses getting nice contracts with them. Honestly if it wasn't for Japan I really feel like we might not have really gotten in the war.
Well, I wasn't talking exclusively about the US, but sure, I get your point.
The difference between a war criminal and a strong leader, in the eyes of the US political leadership, is only the difference between disobedience and obedience to American government policy. And American government policy is set by Wall Street.
then, like, isn’t basically every Western leader a “war criminal”
Honestly, I think the best approach one can take in response to hypocritical liberals is yeah, Putin's an asshole war criminal, but sadly the west and NATO are even asshole war criminaler.
Yes, they are all war criminals
yes, they're all war criminals
Pretty sure 99% of global presidents were and are war criminals
You kinda answered your own question.
then, like, isn’t basically every Western leader + Biden a “war criminal”?
First of all, it comes down to how you define what a war crime actually is and that needs to be pinned down with whoever you're talking to if there is any hope of having a meaningful conversation. Depending on the specifics of the definition, it's not necessarily that Putin isn't one but rather his crimes are so small and petty compared to every single NATO country leader, any leader involved in (for example) the Iraq war, and basically any leader that has taken part in colonialism or US imperialism. Hell, just the sanctions on Iraq before the last war are much greater crimes causing much more civilian suffering and death than anything that Russia (as led by Putin) has done in Ukraine.
To make the term meaningful, I actually don't think Putin should be included under the umbrella. The way Russia has conducted this war is actually astounding in how careful they have been to not cause civilian casualties. I forget the actual statistic here but the civilian deaths caused by the "shock and awe" of the US bombing of Iraqi infrastructure in the first 2 weeks of the Iraq war took something like 6 months or more in Ukraine to reach that same number. Through most of the conflict, Russia deliberately kept Ukrainian infrastructure intact. And fucking Netanyahu? Israel is openly mass murdering children and targeting hospitals and aid workers. They are conducting a visible, unambiguous, full scale genocide. It doesn't get more "war criminal" than that. Anyone, even among hardcore Russia hater libs that say Putin is a war criminal but Netanyahu is not are beyond fucking deluded. They aren't just deeply unserious, they're profoundly flippant.
Anyone, even among hardcore Russia hater libs that say Putin is a war criminal but Netanyahu is not are beyond fucking deluded.
How many blue MAGA libs (your everyday citizens, not the politicians) hold this view? In my experience, the usual lib line is that Israel is committing a genocide because Netanyahu is running it, but that everything would be just fine if some good wholesome Israeli was in charge instead. They don't even acknowledge that Israel is a settler colony and that that's the root of the issue, let alone the fact that this genocide spans eight decades; they just vibe with great man theory and hope Netanyadomort gets replaced while nothing else fundamentally changes.
War crimes are for those who lost the war. (But incidentally, on humanitarian wave, striking civilian infrastructure like power plants in ukraine is a warcrime; nato won in serbia, so that was okay) There is reality of warcrimes (something as written in books, everyone does it), and reality of proven warcrimes (something written by the victors in history books)
I mean as a leftie, sure he is a warcriminal, same as biden and scholz and starmer and cheney and bush and obama and blaire and de gaulle and mitterand etc
The reasoning for Putin, specifically, being a supposed war criminal has to so with orphaned children in Mariupol being inducted into Russian care and fostering. Technically, this does qualify as genocide under the geneva conventions, quite explicitly.
However. Considering the history, and special hatred the Ukrainian nazi paramilitary groups had for the Russian populace of Mariupol, it's not surprising Russia wasn't just going to hand orphaned kids back to their parents tormentors.
Of course, any one who has been watching these western captured international legal institutions over the last few years know what they are for: moral othering of anyone suffering from western imperialism, not impartial justice.
Wow everybody here is saying yes he is. Worst Russian propagandists ever.
what world would it make sense to think that Putin is worse than Netanyahu or the Western leaders who arm and support him?
Propaganda is a hell of a drug
i think it's fine to say that they're all war criminals. i think "no war but class war" if truly held can lead one to a correct anti-imperialist politics.
Well his spies claim that he blew up the apartment complex that was the precursor to the chechen wars. And then they got assassinated. You probably don’t waste manpower and high profile weapons on somebody who’s telling lies. Still,
I believe the US walked back all claims on war criminality and genocide because that causes them to define what it is, which makes their own government liable. The same thing happened with China. Biden or some speaker would make epic speeches condemning China’s genocide or recognizing Taiwan, only for a less high profile white house memo is released saying there is no genocide and there is only one china, the PRC.
How the fuck is Putin supposed to be a “war criminal”? Like? Is anyone who starts a war a “war criminal” now?
Yeah, if you start an aggressive war not for self-defense but for something like expansion that is a specific war crime under the Principle VI(a) of the Nuremberg Principles.
Are you asking for some particular reason?
The Russian effort to resist further American regimechange in the region is absolutely defensive.
if we want to be strict enough to characterize western leaders as war criminals Russia does not pass muster, particularly invading Crimea.
Every poll, even ones conducted by Western orgs, showed that a strong majority of Crimeans wanted to join Russia after the Ukrainian ultra-nationalists took power in 2014. There was also a blowout election (which was predictably called illegitimate by the West). Annexing Crimea was one of the most defensible things Russia did.
Russia, nor Russian citizens were attacked in Crimea, therefore it does not reach the criteria for a defensive action. If we admit a possible future threat to a leased military base on foreign soil as a basis for legitimate invasion the US has much more valid excuses for its crimes
It was self determination by the people of Crimea actually.
international law is not complicated on this, it is forbidden to occupy another soverign territory without being attacked. Russia was not attacked! there are two rhetorical paths available, you can deny the rules of the UN et al as imperialist/whatever OR you can litigiously apply it to all actors in violation which 90% of the time is the west.
I think it's worth besmirching a neolib shithead like putin to be able to accuse the imperial powers of violating their own standards, but if you want to abandon those bases you can always try to argue that elections and referendums performed under military occupations are 100% legit i guess
Actually the people of Crimea didn’t want to be a part of Ukraine anymore, idk what this nonsense about the elections not being “legit” is, are you trying to imply that they didn’t want this? Or are you just against their self determination? The people of Crimea should have to live under a regime of Nazis that hate them and want to do ethnic repression because darn that’s just how we drew the border a few years ago when the USSR was illegally dissolved, tough luck guys.
Yeah, Russia is neoliberal. They aren't good guys. They are just the same as everyone else.
Because he isn't American. As a comunist it is a war crime for him to preemptively attack Afghanistan. I mean ukraine
And if they are all “war criminals” then why would you support one over the other? I don’t get this conversation.
They ARE ALL war criminals. Exactly, why would you support any of them? I don't understand your dilemma.
I mean, there are 10 million Ukrainian refugees, and it's less fair to blame them for their government's disposition than to blame Putin for actually taking the action. That's not quite a war crime though.
There were also occupied apartment buildings that got hit with rockets early on, but it would be hard to prove that those were specfically targeted, as opposed to bombs dropped from aircraft like the IDF and DoD do regularly.