Exactly by design. It's a lot cheaper to make people quit than to lay them off and pay a severance package.
this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
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The problem is you lose good employees this way, instead of the employees you should actually be letting go of.
And then those good employees go work for your competition. Oopsie!
And then those good employees go work for your competition. Oopsie!
And Amazon's competition is...
Target. Best Buy. Grocery store chains. Places like Homegoods and Overstock.com.
Depending on the jobs, also Google, Microsoft, etc...
Any company that does any kind of logistics. You also don’t have to work for a direct competitor. If Amazon is on your resume you’ll have options.
The best employees are getting messages from recruiters all the time with lucrative offers to go elsewhere. It’s foolish to give them a reason to even consider those offers.
In Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg we have a direct competitor called bol.com
These appear to be predominantly corporate jobs. Those folks can go to either a tech company or a logistics company depending on their role. Their skillsets transfer just fine to other companies, competitors or not.
Google, Microsoft, IBM, and Alibaba compete in the cloud hosting market. eBay, Alibaba, Walmart, (insert any other online retailer) compete in the retail sales markets. Netflix, Hulu, Sling, Google, HBO Max all compete in the streaming TV market.
In addition to all of the above, there are numerous other industries that would be glad to hire competent IT staff who leave Amazon.
The one that makes the decision sees all workers as replaceable cogs and the managers that know which people are the good ones are not consulted. We call that the "foie gras" style of management.
Most of Amazon functions this way at this point. It didn’t used to be so bad, but things really went to shit with some belt tightening in 2017/2018 where management wasn’t thoughtful. It was more about networking than a meritocracy.
Couldn’t you decline to move and then force the company to fire and/or lay you off?
That probably depends on their contract and location. Not coming to the office after being told to might result in being fired with cause which may result in loss of severance pay. It might also constitute abandonment of the position which can be seen as "quitting" in some place.
This is the position I'm in. My leadership (multiple levels up) gave us approvals to move away from Seattle (but not too far) after Jassy unequivocally stated that WFH wasn't going away and it was up to teams to decide how they wanted to do it.
So, I bought my first house for my family 90 min away without traffic. Then he swings in with his fragile little ego a year later and tells us "oh, you riff better in office" and forces everyone to come back. Zero data. Nothing of quantifiable value. Lies to our faces. This whole thing is about real estate. 100%, no doubt about it.
I have been VERY openly vocal since then that I will NOT be back in the office more than once a week and will leave if they force it on me.
It's probably the wrong move politically, but I'm pissed off and if I can set an example for the kids who have since joined as newbies, things will be better for them.
But I now have zero issues telling managers 3-4 levels up in public meetings that I won't be in the office specifically because I don't want to be. Fuck the high horse he rode in on.
You (Amazon leadership) wanna demand we use data to prove every single decision we make and completely dominate the company culture with that? Fine. I'll keep using that argument against it. If I'm fired, I will have zero trouble finding a new gig. In the meantime, I will sit at my home office and ignore every single email I get complaining I don't badge into the office 3 times a week and have a 2.5 hour drive each way on those days.
Yes, I moved with the expectation that I'd be doing that once a week permanently. I'm fine with that. So are ALL my managers. Jassy can bite me. I'm really angry if you can't tell.
Got to love that Earn Trust and Day 1 culture. Also it’s amazing how high up some of the decisions are being made without consulting even VPs. The RTO, layoffs, the recent Return to Team, and the shaming email were all done without some VPs knowledge. That seems like a good way to erode trust throughout the entire structure.
Yeah, we found out about RTO via the news before our VP hears anything about it. Erode Trust is the next LP and will likely replace "Strike to be earth's best employer"
I love seeing people stand up to these mandates. I flat out ask the purpose for my physical presence, and unless it's an objectively good reason AND everyone else required will be present, I'm staying away. I've too often arrived at an office to sit on a Teams call.
I'm not contributing to traffic pollution and seeing my kids less to satisfy someone's whim or real estate investment. As far as I'm concerned, that ship has sailed. Virtual whiteboards exist. Welcome to the future.
That is EXACTLY what happens with me. Every single time my calls involve people in different places. Why would I bother if I'm just going to be talking to people who are at their home or halfway across the world?
Exactly this. Also, the market has cooled off now with more people looking for employment, so if they need to rehire, it will be cheaper.
Am Amazon employee (programmer) and can confirm. The shenanigans being pulled right now are absolutely bullshit and as somebody who's been at the company for a long time and has generally enjoyed the fast paced, high pressure atmosphere I'm real close to saying "fuck you" to some of my favorite people.
Note, my experience is probably far from the norm, but my org has nothing but wonderful individuals and they've fought really hard to keep the flexibility we've had since long before covid.
Fuck you Andy Jassy. We all despise you.
Jassy is Amazon's Ballmer.
I could not have said it better <3
Soo, uhh...
How many boobs got DMed to you?
As an Ex Amazonian, (did 5 years time in the Bezos era), you all are forgetting that Amazon’s entire culture is built to be predatory towards type A people. Jassy didn’t start that, Bezos did. Jassy is just relentless because of AWS operations. He’s not better or worse than Besos.
Ballmer nearly destroyed Microsoft and Satya had to save it.
This is why they did it. It's a great way to reduce headcount without paying severence.
Forced relocation of more than 20 miles or so (some reasonable amount that doesn't require a move) should not allow a company to get out of severance. That should be illegal.
In many countries it is classed as constructive dismissal.
It's not exactly illegal but it is considered constructive dismissal which at least qualifies you for unemployment.
Had a job that could be done remotely. New VP wanted all of his people in one place that was across the country. Two people out of about twenty went. One was promised a promotion and the other was close to retirement.
Well, uh... Duh? I mean, even if people absolutely loved their jobs and their employer, not everyone is going to move because the job moves. And Amazon isn't exactly the most loved employer.
I've gotten over the idea of moving to a new location for a job. Right now I'm living in a city that I love and would not want to move out just to pursue a career opportunity.
That's definitely a new thing that's come out after COVID hit but there's no going back for me anyhow
I bought my house right before COVID. No job is getting me to move at this point, and even if they wanted to there’s no offer lucrative enough to make selling a good idea. Interest rates would need to plummet first and we know that’s not happening anytime soon.
5 billion dollars to move....
Yep, even before COVID in my old job we moved office that basically changed my commute from a 10 minute walk to a 1 hour drive thru a shitty downtown traffic and my mental health sank. Even though in my previous job it was similar. I was already so used to having only 20 minutes of my day taken for commute (and the ability to have lunch at home).
Having that changed to at least 2 hours a day (take into account more expenses due to using personal vehicle, more time taken due to looking for a parking spot, and no I didn't use public transport because it's shitty in my area and can add another hour to my commute).
Since going full remote at the start of COVID basically the first thing I ask to any recruiter contacting me is whether the role is remote or not. If yes the next question is whether the management have plans to go back to the office in the current or next fiscal year.
Even with it's drawbacks, remote work has been a boon for me. I get to spend more time with my children, I get rewarded when I work efficiently because I can finish working faster. With Discord I can still keep building rapport with my coworkers by having game nights weekly.
It's really understandable, and even just a 1-hour commute changes an average day from 8 hours to ten hours, which is a huge quality of life difference.
As a manager, it's a little frustrating because I have great job applicants that are only interested in 100% remote but much of my work requires people to be hands on with hardware, and my company has a hybrid policy, so everyone has to be in plant some days.
My team is all software developers, and I have no doubt about them being as productive or more from home as at work (though in-person collaboration is more effective than remote). I don't have any personal issue with it and am as liberal as policy allows about approving remote work, but some things we do just have to be hands-on.
Thankfully, my personal commute is about 15 minutes, so isn't a big impact in my day
People aren't afraid of what will happen if they quit a job they don't like anymore after COVID taught us that we can weather some down time and find employers that match our values.
This is one way to reduce staff without having to fire or pay severance.
Guys, you realize that this is already factored into the move right? You think the team was just shocked that most of the work force didn't leave? 🤦♂️
Exactly. It exposes the bias in the headline wording designed to trigger a reaction because this is Amazon, but companies move all the time, and a percentage of the workforce will always prefer not uprooting themselves, no matter how good or bad their employer.
How is this even legal. Isn't this considered workplace bullying?
It's constructive dismissal.
Sorry guys, we are moving your position to Antarctica. Can't come? Oh well I guess you get no severance.
Please explain what ypu think “workplace bullying” is here. While I think it’s stupid, in at will states, Amazon’s terms of employment can be whatever Amazon wants as long as they comply with federal and state laws. It’s not illegal to tell you your job is moving. It’s just a shitty thing to do to your employees. There’s not bullying here. It’s just terms of employment.
I'll agree that bullying is probably the wrong term.
Where I'm from you can't just force people to change work location. If they want to move the company they can, but it has to be within x km of the preclvious building or get agreement from a certain percentage of employees. Otherwise it counts as a collective firing of the workforce.
Politicians should act on this stuff tbh.