Market postcapitalism with worker coops doesn't mean the workers own the means of production. That idea of what postcapitalism looks like is Marxist baggage that needs to move into the dustbin of intellectual history. A worker coop can, for example, lease means of production from another worker coop or individual without violating the workers' inalienable rights to workplace democracy or to get the fruits of their labor @lemmyshitpost

[–] areyouevenreal@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

What idea needs throwing in the dustbin? The "workers own the means of production" part? What exactly is wrong with that idea?

[–] jlou@mastodon.social 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

There is no reason why only workers should own the means of production nor why the means of production a firm uses must be owned by the workers of the same firm. Leasing out means of production to other firms is a perfectly valid way for worker coops to exchange products of labor. What is illegitimate is the employment contract as it violates inalienable rights. There are distributive justice and efficiency arguments for common ownership of capital, but that includes non-workers

[–] areyouevenreal@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Aren't workers not owning means of production the reason surplus value can be extracted from them? Workers owning means of production is the definition of socialism for a reason. How can you guarantee the workers won't be exploited without this?

[–] jlou@mastodon.social 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The workers aren't exploited in a worker coop. The workers jointly appropriate the positive and negative fruits of their labor. The workers don't create the product ex nihilo they use up inputs (e.g. the services of capital). Paying lease is satisfaction of liabilities for using up capital services. Leasing out labor's product allows workers to sell a part of the product's services rather than sell the entire product. The employment contract gives the employer the product @lemmyshitpost

[–] areyouevenreal@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Those are some very fancy words. Now I know how people feel when I talk about computers.

[–] jlou@mastodon.social 2 points 8 months ago

You're right that wasn't very clear.

Capitalism is exploitative due to the employment contract not non-worker capital ownership. The employment contract is bad because it gives the employer 100% of the property right to the produced output (i.e. ownership of new cars in a car firm) and 100% of the liabilities for the used-up inputs (i.e. factory machine services) while employees get 0%. The workers don't create the output out of nothing they use input materials @lemmyshitpost