this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
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What I don't understand, as someone who doesn't support Hamas or Netanyahu, is why you would chant that.
Like, where would Jews go? Is that actually a real solution? Only super old people actually came to Israel from another country, most of the Israelis don't know any other home
Well for one, Jews and specifically Israelis don't have to go anywhere for Palestine and Palestinians to be free?
Like the slogan just does not at all necessarily imply what you're imagining (or what the US congress claims) it does. That slogan's been around longer than Hamas.
The slogan is being used by far right israelis too. And it is implicitly genocidal for both sides. Israel is here to stay and so is Palestine. Both sides need to accept this so we can move towards the next goal, defining which lands go to which side.
Israel needs to be charitable and give back land, remove settlers, etc. And in response Palestine needs to control its people and guarantee the safety of Israel.
A lot of Israel's landgrab is because of security concerns or at least thats Israel's excuse. If Palestine can remove that excuse by providing security, things can become a lot simpler.
The problem is that Palestine does not exist as a country with a unified government, partly because of Israel(supported hamas, etc), so Israel continues having legitimate security concerns.
To be fair, we do say the same thing about "all lives matter." An objectively true statement that can border on hate speech depending on context
It's not the free part I have an issue with, it's the geography
Exactly, it's the whole "black lives matter" vs "all lives matter" thing all over again.
We saw how that played out in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. After it was "freed" by Azerbaijan, 100,000 people were displaced. Sure, they didn't have to go, but some people don't like living under a dictatorship.
Gaza didn't have an election since 2006
You know the original slogan in Arabic? What slogan it's translation of?
min al-mayyeh lil-mayyeh / Filasṭīn ʿarabiyyeh (من المياه للمياه / فلسطين عربية 'from the water to the water / Palestine [is] Arab')
Literally 75% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza choose it as the explicit genocide option on a survey that Includes one state for two people as an option. This is a poll done by a Palestinian university in the west bank, claiming its Israeli propaganda would be pretty stupid. All the US congress did was assert to the public what the meaning is to a super majority of Palestinians in Palestine. The diaspora pushing a different narrative never speaks up when the crowds chant the Arabic version that ends in "Palestine will be Arab" (or "Palestine is Arab").
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf
Jesus christ, Israel is literally a British colony. Getting Jews out of Europe was exactly what the Nazis wanted.
Zionism isn't some centuries old thing; it's based in British colonization tactics. It started in full force only around 70 years ago to serve British military interests in the region.
The companies made are literally called "Colonization Commission" and 'the Jewish Colonial Trust'
Israel, EU, and the US should decolonize the region and return it to Palestine. Where they go is up to those governments to manage, because they started this. But that goes against their profit incentives, which is to keep the middle-east divided through war, keep oil cheap, and prevent them from uniting against the imperial core, no matter how many hundreds of thousands of civilians are killed in the process.
People are being displaced and forced out of their homes by settlers and military right now. Fuck colonizers.
The PFLP, the second largest Palestinian liberation group after Fatah, calls for a secular Palestinian state where Jews, Muslims, etc. will live together in peace. Modern Fatah even accepts a two-state solution (and they have every right not to). Only Hamas is mixing up Zionists with Jews, and that's entirely because of Israel and the Imperial core's constant oppression, displacement, and now genocide of the natives.
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People are being displaced and forced out of their homes by settlers and military right now
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When Jews lived there in period of Judah and Israel, was that also European colonization?
Let's not forget that Muslims conquered this region, it wasn't magically peacefully obtained. Was this not colonialism?
You are talking about shit that happened 1400 years ago. Such a flimsy and ridiculous excuse for expelling millions of Palestinians from their homes. The entitlement and religious extremism is incredible
How many years of Israeli occupation have to go by until it is no longer considered occupation and Israeli land? There has to be a dividing line between the expulsions 1400 years ago and that time where the land became Palestinian, no? Palestinians and Israelis (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, non-religious, etc.) have an equal claim to existence - many of those that want to disband the colonist state of Israel are also advocating genocide. Genocide doesn't always mean killing - it also means the destruction of national identity. It's obvious that a two state solution is necessary to stop and avoid future genocide of both peoples. "River to the sea" never meant coexistence and I think it's about time people stop advocating for a counter-genocide with that slogan.
I never said I support settlers or whatever they are doing in West Bank.
Oh, so given your opinion, can African Americans or Chinese Americans return to their respective continents, occupy an entire country by displacing its current population, and claim it as their ancestral land? How delusional.
And since when is “the period of Judah” an accurate historical reference point?
The Israelis were born and raised in Israel. Nobody is coming back from anywhere
Reactionary thinking like this is what lets colonizers and settlers continue to do what they're doing even in the modern day. A war 1400 years ago does not justify colonizing and slaughtering natives right now. Surely you can see how fucked up that is?
Theodor Herzl, founder of Zionism, knew this, and did not mince his words. He was simply racist, and saw it as bringing 'civilization' to barbarians as did the rest of Europe when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
That is exactly what's happening right now. All for European and US military and economic interests in the region.
Great, then we agree, Hamas killing innocents is in no way justified. Most of Gaza is under 18 years old. Not only were they not alive for the events of 1949, their parents most likely were not either.
Where did I say I support settlers?
You realize Gaza has been an open-air prison ever since, right? And you're trying to use the decreased life expectancy in Gaza from Israeli oppression to deny their right to fight back against colonizers? What the fuck?
Ah, yes, kill and rape to prove how right you are. See how that's working out for them
Two five star hotels isn't something you find in a prison.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Beach_Resort,_Gaza
Also 70% of jews in Israel, half the population are native jews not Europeans of any kind.
Of the 20% Arab population, as many that live in Gaza, 70% identify with Israel over Palestine. A historic high that increased after weeks of war. Calling them colonizers is inaccurate and insulting levels of racism.
The life expectancy in Gaza was actually 75 years, whatever 40 number you saw is misinformation. They had an average amount of hospitals and medical clinics per capita. There's a lot of kids because people have a lot of kids. Why the population has ballooned.
They also managed to get phones and other resources in. Almost like it wasn't really a full blockade. Lots would go to work in Israel before the latest war.
Before the Zionist movement, Palestine was ruled first by the Ottomans and then the British. Prior to Zionism, the land held Christians (the latest bombardment destroyed the 3rd oldest Christian Church in the world), Muslims, and Jews. In fact the early Palestinian national movement considered Jewish Palestinians to be Palestinian and their demands them full rights in a secular state of Palestine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews
Genetics, if that matters, shows that the pre-zionist natives of Palestine are closely related to European (Sepahrdic and Ashkenazi) Jews. Basically some people left centuries ago, but some people stayed.
Now since 1948 those that left want to kick out those that stayed, or kill them if they don't leave.
I still don't see the relevance, the whole region is a bunch of people conquering it
It's a thought terminating clishe. It's easy to avoid complex issues if you can just repeat a quick little chant to get out of critical thinking.
It means that Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza should be free from Israeli oppression and Palestinians living in Israel should be free from apartheid. It doesn’t mean kicking people out.
That isn't what it means. You are trying to RetCon history to align with present day values. Stop it.
Literally 75% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza choose it as the explicit genocide option on a survey that Includes one state for two people as an option. This is a poll done by a Palestinian university in the west bank, claiming its Israeli propaganda would be pretty stupid.
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf
The gas lighting is intense. The charitable take that people are ignorant just says a lot about their knowledge of the region and the conflict.
'48 Palestinians in Israel also are full citizens https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-poll-finds-arab-israelis-sense-of-kinship-with-state-at-a-20-year-high/ their situation has vastly improved and labeling it apartheid is ignorance. That label can only apply to Gaza and the West Bank and arguably then even when compared with actual apartheid. There are Arabs in parliament, on the Supreme Court, and in the highest ranks of the IDF. Like fuck, Benny Gantz, one of the three ministers in the war cabinet, was shit talking in Arabic during the ceasefire because Israelis learn Arabic in school too. A significant number of the troops killed in Gaza are Druze, another minority Abrahamic faith that speaks Arabic with a large minority population in Israel. Highest standard of living for their minority in the region. There's a movement since the war started to enshrine them in Israel's Basic Law (constitution).
There are covenants all through Israel that forbid travel and residency by "full citizens" Palestinians of Israeli citizenship. There are separate schools. Do we not remember "separate is not equal"?
Most schools are integrated. There's no seperate busses or restrictions.
America has issues with home owners associations too. It also has religious schools. Ever hear about redlining or looking at a ethnicity map of a city like Chicago or Detroit?
Israeli Arab travel is not restricted inside of Israel. You are probably thinking of the west bank.
Btw Israeli jews aren't allowed into parts of the west bank and Jerusalem either.
That’s nice excuse making. There’s YouTube videos of Israeli bus drivers refusing to take Palestinian passengers.
HOAs in America are private contracts but the Knesset passed The Admissions Committees Law (2011) which allows hundreds of small towns built on state land to select applicants based on their “social suitability”. The law is used in practice to filter out Israeli Arabs and members of other marginalized groups. The fact that the government does this is much much worse than an HOA.
Here's a very real lived experience for you: anyone can go to the Western Wall in Jerusalem, the 2nd most holy Jewish site with a security check. Anyone can go to the major Christian sites. Only Muslims are officially allowed to go to the Temple Mount, the first most holy Jewish site.
I’ve been to Israel multiple times. Israeli Arabs are not allowed at the western wall and are turned away by security. I can introduce you to some of you don’t believe me.
And the Temple Mount is under the control of the Jordanian government by Israeli treaty and the Israeli military isn’t letting people in, even most rabbis have said the Mount is off limits to Jews. Not that that’s stopped extemeists from going there. The Israeli military also often bans Muslims under age 60 from visiting so you’re not special.
They chant that because it means something different depending on who says it. The Palestinians have been chanting this slogan for many years since the PLO times. The call was to unite the people to show unity between the people of gaza to west bank. However, when Hamas took power, the chant turned into something antisemitic. So you will hear both sides now, unite the people and wishes for terror.
no. it means all jews should b expelled, if not dead.
Zionists*
Yes, all Zionists should be expelled, or dead. Don't mistake Zionists for normal Jewish people, the same way you don't mistake Islamic extremists for normal Muslims.
q. e. d.
Do you understand there is a difference between extremist Islamists and normal Muslims? Or do you think they're the same?
In the the same vein, do you think Zionist settlers are the same as regular Jewish people, who are protesting against Israel and the US's actions?
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who are protesting against Israel and the US's actions
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do you?
Israel can't and shouldn't exist in the future.
An ethnic religious state can never be free.
But it will exists, so maybe try to work in thay framework for a solution
Many who chant it don't even know what river or sea they are talking about without looking it up.
And they don't care what happens to the Jews. It's a racist chant which is basically supporting genocide.
It's an idiotic phrase that only morons and racists would repeat. It's unrealistic and doesn't solve a damn thing. But of course the herd will repeat the catchy phrase because they have an excuse to be openly racist but still have a way of justifying it.
There. I said it.
And no, before these same idiots say otherwise: I am not happy with how Israel or the IDF is handling the current situation or the situation before October. Nor am I a supporter of hamas and their actions in early October; Israel just had their own 9/11, so of course they are going to react miltaryary, of course they fucking are, like every country on the planet would.
This whole thing is like watching two unlikeable assholes having a boxing match. It's basically boogie2899 Vs wingsofredemption but with a lot more death and destruction, so it's not funny.
"Of course they're going to bomb refugee camps and schools, of fucking course they are" Jesus Christ just stfu already with the bullshit excuses
I'm not making excuses. Try reading my comment again and thinking for a moment.
You can do it! I believe in you!
take my upvote good sir