this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2023
186 points (90.8% liked)

World News

39142 readers
4666 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

All the news on his speech seems to be about HS2 but I think that this is important too.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

He is a despicable right-conservative populist who obviously says this for all the wrong reasons but that does not change the fact that the statement by itself is a correct one. Humans can change their gender, that is possible because gender is a more or less internalised, socio-cultural and therefore psychological construct. The sex of a human on the other hand is an inherent, biological and physiological quality, written into each cells DNA. Therefore the sex of a person could only be changed by replacing chromosomes in every single cell of the individuals body. I very much hope for all trans people that it will become medically possible to change their sex in the future but at this point it is simply not medically possible and to deny this truth will not make the lifes of trans people better.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is true insomuch as you define sex as the 46th chromosome, but an argument can be made that that is overly simplistic. Nearly every cell in our body experiences some amount of sexual differentiation, and this is often mediated by Testosterone and Estrogen exposure. The complicating part is that trans people undergoing hormone replacement therapy do dramatically change their hormonal profile, and while some tissues are only meaningfully sensitive to sex hormones early in development (no amount of HRT is going to change your skeleton, for instance, or cause someone to grow a uterus), other tissues do remain sensitive to sex hormones and can meaningfully differentiate in adulthood causing significant medical effects. Estrogen, for instance, promotes blood clot formation, which is why (cis) women have a higher rate of them. Trans women who take estrogen, as would be expected, also have a higher rate of blood clots compared to cis men. If trans people are only changing gender, and gender is a strictly social phenomenon, we can't really explain this. Likewise, Testosterone can promote higher cholesterol levels that lead to heart attacks, which is why men have higher rates of them. Trans men taking Testosterone also experience this.

So, the fact of the matter is that trans people taking hormones go through biological changes that exactly parallel natural sexual differentiation, albeit in limited form. This has direct clinical relevance, as a trans man seeking cardiovascular medical support should not be treated the same way as a cis woman. Given this, there is a sound argument to be made that "biological sex" as defined in this way simply isn't sufficient to describe these kinds of people. At a biological level, they really do represent a kind of intermediate state in sexual differentiation, and this bears medical significance.

What it doesn't really bear, however, is social significance outside of very close intimate personal relationships. Regardless of whether you think having a strongly gendered society is a good thing or not, the fact is that we don't determine social gender through magical Chromosome-Scopes, but rather a complex mix of perceived traits, both of the body and things like voice, hair, clothing, personality, etc.

[–] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Very interesting and I agree with everything you wrote.

At a biological level, they really do represent a kind of intermediate state in sexual differentiation

I just wish one day all people who feel a need to do so will be able to transition entirely, not just socially but also biologically.

[–] Gabu@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If trans people are only changing gender, and gender is a strictly social phenomenon we can’t really explain this

Yes we can... It's the exact same as consuming a drug which changes how your body works. Arguing otherwise is akin to saying people who drink coffee have a different sex than those who don't.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

My point is that binary sex is an incomplete metric that doesn't accurately describe the biology of trans people. My wording was a bit clunky there, but if the meaningful traits that sex describes are mediated through hormonal profiles, and hormonal profiles do not necessarily match the 46th chromosome, there's a strong argument to be made that what we're really describing when we're talking about sex in humans is not the value of a chromosome, but rather the pattern of sexual differentiation throughout the body, and the fact of the matter is that that is not a strict binary. Binary sex based on chromosomes is not capable of meaningfully distinguishing between a cis woman and a trans man despite there being many significant biological differences between them that are produce in the exact same way as they are between cis women and men.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Your definitions of sex and gender are not in universal use, and they are not the definitions used by Sunak. So his statement was not "correct", because what it meant was not correct.

[–] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your definitions of sex and gender are not in universal use

Interesting! What definitions are in universal use?

I think my definitions of sex and gender and the definitions of the Council of Europe seem pretty congruent though:

Sex refers to “the different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.”

Gender refers to "the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed

source

and they are not the definitions used by Sunak

Good point, I assume that he (as the conservative-populist he is) probably meant to say gender when he said sex and that he wanted to imply that people can not change gender (which is obviously false because gender is a social construct and not an inherent biological quality).

All that does not change the fact that the statement "people can not change their sex" itself is a correct one though. As far as I understand logic, if somebody says something correct while meaning something incorrect, that does not change the true statement into a false one.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What definitions are in universal use?

No definition is in universal use.

meant to say gender when he said sex

He meant to say exactly what he said, and it was incorrect. He was not using your definition of sex. He was using it in the same sense as "I had a sex change operation".

Or "Now I want to change the sex on my birth certificate". Do you also chime in to inform people it's wrong to do that?

[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's really not necessary to bend over backwards to defend him. If he was talking about chromosomes he'd have had no reason to say anything because it would just been a pointless non sequitur with no political relevance. He obviously meant it as an attack against trans people's existence.

[–] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I never defended him and I don´t get why you project such nonsense on me after I clearly wrote:

He is a despicable right-conservative populist who obviously says this for all the wrong reasons but that does not change the fact that the statement by itself is a correct one.

Are you unable to separate between the person and the statement?

[–] Miimikko@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Is this your idea of bending over backwards to defend someone?