Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
view the rest of the comments
If you care about the people you're talking to, belittling their entire viewpoint dismissively without countering their arguments. Is not going to win them over. In fact it might hurt their relationship with you.
If you have the time and inclination, take the argument they have that you have an issue with, and break it down to its fundamental points. It's a good exercise for both of you. Work through what things mean at a fundamental level to both of you and find what the core disagreement is. Is it philosophical, is it structural, is it traditional, there's many facets of an argument that people can latch on to. Having them explain why to you and then why the why etc can be helpful for both you and them to come to if not a common understanding but a mutual respect for positions.
But this is time intensive, and if we're just talking about randos on the internet it's not worth your time.
There is no disagreement, I just feel kinda sad seeing people that I've known for years fall into being red pill bots and try to act "cool" (like morons) any time anyone disagrees with them or dares say anything negative about that one rich asshole...
Okay you've known them for years. That's a large time investment.
So when they do something you disagree with at a fundamental level, ask them to explain oh why do you support that? And then when they give you a high level answer ask them why that is there answer. Like peel the onion to get to their core issues. And if people's core issues that's just what other people say and they haven't thought about it, you're going to help them think about it for themselves. Which may not convert them but will at least get them to apply some intellectual rigor to their thinking
Ahh the Socratic Method. One of the most effective means of teaching is playung just dumb enough, asking the right questions and getting them to provide some evidence. Make them convince you of their point of view and just keep pointing out the flaws once they start making contradictions.
What do you tell them right now? Do you ague or tell them they’re idiots?
Mostly the ladder, as I've exhausted my strength to argue with them
That will achieve nothing but getting them to dislike you. That is an option, but I think two better ones are to either accept that you're not going to change their minds because they're too far down that rabbit hole and either just cope or cut off contact or spend a lot of time and effort constructing rational counter-arguments. I recommend the former.
I have some very crazy friends. That's okay because they're crazy in ways that don't offend me. If they offend me with their crazy, I'm not going to waste my time with them anymore. It's not worth the effort to try to change them and it isn't really my job.
Edit: as a total off-topic thing regarding red pill/blue pill. In the Matrix universe: What happens if you take both pills?
You transcend reality and become god (an even bigger incel)
There's a Matrix above the Matrix?
It's matrices all the way down!
Something about matriosca dolls...? No, it's gone.
This also presumes that aspects of the root cause are changeable. I grew up with a guy who became an incel in the pure sense, not political sense.
The poor guy was hit with the ugly stick very badly, and then had an accident that left him partially disabled.
When puberty hit and everyone became horny assholes, he had a double whammy of being a horny asshole too, but getting ignored (at best) or out-right derision from the teen girls he expressed interest in. He was also self-aware enough to both know that he was a hypocrite because he only wanted to date an attractive woman, and that he understood that goes both ways (societally and biologically) so he went into a cycle of vocal self-loathing.
You can guess the rest. Those behaviors compounded and altered his personality to the point he was no longer the happy go lucky ugly ass dude and was now the guy who was just as ugly on the inside as the outside and no one wanted to be around that negativity.
I have no idea what happened to him after college as I never went back to my HS town after my parents moved away from it. I would like to think he is doing better with age and therapy, but I doubt it.
I'm not saying you're going to convince everyone. But clearly you understand this person's motivations. You can't bring them to your perspective, but you can socialize a healthier perspective to them. You don't have to convince everybody to be you. And I'm really happy that you're so conscientious and sympathetic. Probably something that person needed to be less of an asshole than they could have possibly been.
That's so sad - sometimes life can be so horribly unfair!