IDF: Whoops, tee hee.
this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
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They killed like 1 fighter in exchange for wounding a thousand civilians, including at least one little girl who died. The pager shit is every bit as indiscriminate as the bombing.
i think they killed like, 12 people, and injured somewhere between 1-2 thousand more, probably some civilians in there, but these are military pagers to my knowledge so it'd be weird for it to hurt a bunch of random people, but it's possible.
if you include the radio attack i think it's like another 40 dead, and like 500 injured? Don't quote me on it.
Right now the plan is to start assassinating everyone that got maimed for being related to zbowla
This says 37 dead, of whom Hezbollah have stated 31 were their fighters.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/threat-israel-hezbollah-war-looms-after-lebanon-device/story?id=113833089
That's a pretty clean ratio actually, considering the nature of Hesbollah.
Yeah. Two civilians dead for every one militant is fairly typical for asymmetric warfare.
Where are you getting those numbers?
Vague memory, but on looking it up, it's even worse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
I'm sure that's true in general, but given the pagers and radios were being either held or worn by the target, I'd say this attack would have been much better.
sounds about right with what i've heard from other places.
Hezbollah is a political party with 18 parliamentary seats and thousands of public service workers on their payroll.
Saying these were "fighters" is akin to bombing an UNRWA center and claiming you killed 31 Hamas Terrorists.
so then why did they have pagers? I thought the pagers were specifically for millitant orders, or is the whole political party communicating in private via one way pagers?
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence, in a building for example, rather than like this.
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
obviously. It seems more akin to hamas than like, the green party in the US for example though. I wouldn't be surprised if the primary purpose of the pagers was for military communications. I would expect any sort of political meetings to be done through a scheduled period, i could see notifications going out for these things. But that's about it.
also, from what i've heard, they had phones previously, and recently got rid of them for the usage of these pagers, since the phones were probably bugged, with israeli intelligence anyway.
also i'm not sure this semantically counts as a "mass murder" usually those are done directly by an individual, on a group of people immediately in front of them. Maybe it could apply to this, but that seems like a stretch, especially considering this killed like 50 people total, which is a lot, but considering the amount of injuries and spicy pagers, that's not very effective.
Would the US pullout of afghan that killed like 13 members of the military also count as mass murder? That's more than a few, and probably more collective than this event.
It's underdeveloped because a terrorist organization fought a war to control the telecommunications system so they could leverage it more effectively for more terrorism.
Hezbollah was using commercial grade pagers because they're a militia. The purpose of pagers are to contact them when their off duty. Many of these pagers blew up in homes, grocery stores, and other public places. Many civilians were killed and most people injured were bystanders.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i've seen, these "explosions" seem more like "really bad pocket fires" more than anything to me, i could see it injuring people. Maybe two or three standing immediately nearby other people.
But considering this attack has only like 12 confirmed dead civilians or something, "many" seems a little excessive. I could see a few hundred getting injured though. Possibly a few cars/homes burning down. That might cause a few more.
ok so, did a bit of a check here, 12 civilians died. That's where that number came from. 40 people died total, i think. At least that's what wikipedia tells me. I don't think it ever mentions how many civilians were injured directly, but assuming it follows the deaths, it's somewhere between probably 500 and 1000 i would guess.
From what you can recall? I'm sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
It's terrorism, plain and simple.
Yeah dude. "Only."' You're right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
You really should look up the definition of terrorism some time. If Hamas were the primary target, it's not.
this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
As for the videos, i haven't watched them, for what i feel like should be pretty obvious reasons. I don't just watch gore content for fun or anything. I'm not a military analyst or claiming to be one lol. I'm just some dude on the internet who thinks exploding pagers is a rather odd way to go about things, although theoretically practical (as seen by the fact that they did it)
maybe, again i know nothing about hezbollah, less about their goals, and even less about what their role in this conflict has been, other than a relatively minor altercation in some of the recent events.
how would you prefer i format it lmao? It's the fucking english language, it's semantically correct and provides all the needed context, 12 civilians died in this attack, that's it. No more, no less, plain and simple. Especially compared to the sheer amounts of injured people, presumably including a lot of civilians, this would be EVEN more appropriate.
Also, there have been single mass shootings that have killed more people. There have most certainly been thousands of accidents (think infra related, cars, trains, etc) that have killed more people, and almost definitely, many many more individual accidental deaths.
12 people is not a whole lot in the total grand scheme of how many people die for reasons that shouldn't really happen in the first place, it's a lot of people that die every year. Also yeah wouldn't these literally be rookie numbers? Seems a bit redundant to me.
why are you deciding to weigh in on a topic that you're not invested in and don't even claim to know anything about?
i find it a relatively good way to find information on these topics, as well as to gather what the common public sentiment of these things are.
Obviously i know a little bit about the attack, but that's it.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
This killed way less civilians than a traditional bombing that would have got the same Hezbollah fighters would have.
It's funny how Israel made it a "normal" thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait...
i don't think they did normalize it though, russia has been indiscriminately hitting civilian places with artillery shells since the beginning of the invasion.
the soviet union has an even more aggressive history of this, scorched earth policies and such, which are almost definitely very old.
yet another example, except i don't even have to make the point myself!
in fact, i would argue the concept of minimizing human losses in war is a relatively recent advancement in social theory. That hasn't exactly been a regular consideration throughout most of history, afaik.
Obviously, bomb the grocery stores and the shopping malls, then blame the people you were targeting for the collateral murder.
FFS, I'm old enough to remember when Obama drone striking a teenage boy was considered at least mildly controversial for liberals. Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
so technically, and semantically, it's not cluster bombing, it's a highly distributed form of micro bombing. Similar to the idea of "incendiary explosive laden bats" in ww2, and various other crackhead ideas the US military cooked up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb
Last I saw was 37 dead to over 3000 injuries
yeah that's what wikipedia is saying. I'm unsure if this includes the radio attacks also though.
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
yeah, that's generally how products work. Even in the US military the government just walks up to a company and goes "can you make this? And if they say yes they pay them money, or times of war just go "hey i need you to make this"
the only difference here is that it's not quite a formally established military, so it's using off the shelf components and products, which is pretty common for these smaller groups.
although depending on the dealer, that dealer may have been the source of intrusion, so there's that.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird. I doubt this was a highly specific attack. It would be a very, very odd way to do it, but then again this conflict has been nothing but odd, so i can't really put it past them lol.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy. While everyone else is technically collateral, it's probably considered to be beneficial to the cause. At least by israel.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden's hideout.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are "bug people" who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
"The program was ultimately unsuccessful. It led to the arrest of a participating physician, Shakil Afridi, and was widely ridiculed as undermining public health."
hmm. Also it seems this was to check DNA from blood samples. So not really a good comparison here.
i mean that's a potential reason, but these are also pagers meant for military communications purposes right? Why wouldn't you want to target military personnel if you're already gunning for one person. Besides these are probably more dangerous left unexploded than what currently happened. Imagine what would happen in 20 years when these make their way onto the second hand markets. You could very well accidentally kill innocent people then. You can still do it now, but since they've presumably all been deactivated, it's probably not a huge concern.
There are definitely concerns over war crimes and shit, but unfortunately i'm not the ICC or ICJ so i can't comment on that with authority.
No, it's not. This was a very tactical way of striking an enemy that hides behind women and children.
So would Netanyahu also be considered as hiding behind women and children? He's out in public, traveling and lives in Tel Aviv.
Flinging a hand grenade into a crowd several thousand times over
But it's okay because the crowd was full of Arabs aka Terrorists
There's a big difference between dropping bombs and small pagers exploding. I watched a lot of those videos, and almost no one except the targets were injured.
It's really sad that anyone else got injured at all, but damn, I'm glad they were able to be so destructive without injuring the thousands upon thousands that have been dying up until now. Or are you just upset that you can't claim genocide for this attack?
Israel is doing both across Southern Lebanon. The pager attack was just the first salvo.
1000 civilians had pagers sold to Hezbollah? Odd.
Can you confidently say you know the exact chain of custody of your cell phone?
Some killer gets a pager he doesn't need, sells it to someone to make some cash, who gives it to their kid. Annnnd boom.
These weren't devices connected to any network, these were connected to a network run by Hesbollah. There was no reason for a civilian to have one of these pagers.
I buy mine offline so I'll can for sure say, I've no fucking idea
No. Can you? How does OP know this about 1000 civilians? Don't get me wrong. Fuck the Israeli government and it's indiscriminate murder, but also fuck the lies. Speak truth.
Since you're changing topics from "how could kids get pagers meant for someone else"...
In war, everyone lies. But one thing I've found as an American is that, if you're killing in another country, you're probably the worse of the two.
Hezbollah isn't just a military organization. It's a political party. The majority of those pagers were in civilian hands when they detonated.