NotMushroomForDebate

joined 2 weeks ago
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What skills do you have? in c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
[–] NotMushroomForDebate@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

I can only read this in Yugopnik's voice.

What is the view regarding the consequences of Brexit-style EU exits? in c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml
[–] NotMushroomForDebate@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I don't disagree with any of the points you raise.
I'm mainly asking about what we should do in the case that a similar referendum happens in the EU when this rhetoric is already controlled by the right. Assuming we don't have the time/opportunity to build and grow our own leftist anti-EU rhetoric.

The assumption here is that we would know beforehand, given the popularity of the right, that they would rise to power in the direct aftermath and accelerate the worsening of the material conditions for the working class, in addition to enacting a lot of hateful policies for marginalised groups.

The question is less about what should the left's position be on the EU in general, rather about what should be done at that specific point in time where you know what the immediate consequences would be if that country left the EU through a rightist movement.
In other words: should an EU-exit be delayed by leftists until it happens under more favourable conditions?

What is the view regarding the consequences of Brexit-style EU exits? in c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml
[–] NotMushroomForDebate@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (3 children)

Thanks for the insight. The party work you are doing sounds very interesting and it's great to know that it's growing.

I understand that it's a difficult issue to analyse, and I've been thinking about it a lot as I've mostly been looking at Germany where this topic is more salient than most other EU countries.

I looked at the DKP, which seemed to be the most reasonable of the communist parties in Germany according to the responses on this Ask Lemmygrad thread. Most of the campaign posters they have seem to zero-in on this anti-EU rhetoric:

I felt I should understand whether this really should be the main focus since I found it a bit odd that they're choosing to spend so much time campaigning on this when the anti-EU rhetoric is already very popular with the right.

What is the view regarding the consequences of Brexit-style EU exits? in c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml
[–] NotMushroomForDebate@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 5 days ago (6 children)

I'm not sure I understand what the stance to take would be in this instance. What is the opportunity that is being presented for leftist movements in this scenario? Should we be trying to take over the anti-EU rhetoric from the right with our own movements? I feel that this is very unlikely to succeed given how popular the far right is and how powerless the left is currently in a country like Germany for example.

In this scenario, should we push back against the movement to exit the EU so long as we know for certain that far right groups would inherit power in the aftermath? Or do we still support an EU exit and allow the short to medium-term damage to occur while trying to organise and focusing on mutual-aid for affected groups?

I'm not sure. I feel quite conflicted with supporting an EU exit where we're pretty-much asking the working class of that country to martyr themselves.

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What is the view regarding the consequences of Brexit-style EU exits? (lemmygrad.ml)
 

To preface: This is not in defence of the EU. There will be no imperialist apologia in this post/question.

The push for EU exits is overwhelmingly right-wing in the majority of EU countries. We knew beforehand what the result of a move like Brexit would be like for the UK, especially for the material conditions of the working class, at the very least in the short-term, which was quickly confirmed by the situation we can currently see.

While no one can claim that the EU's supposed 'rule of law' and institutions have managed to curb the resurgence of fascism, as evidenced by the popularity of fascist rhetoric and political parties in most EU countries, it still worth noting that they strongly oppose the EU nonetheless.
However minimal, right-wing and fascist parties are limited by the EU in their desired expression of xenophobic, queerphobic, abelist, anti-immigrant, and other generally hateful policies where marginalised people are used as scapegoats. Limitations they would very much like to be rid of.

The push for Brexit-style EU exits is an overwhelmingly right-wing project, where leftist anti-imperialist anti-EU voices are reduced to the fringes or are completely unheard of. The aftermath of the success of such a project, while it would weaken the EU, is shouldered by the most vulnerable, most marginalised groups of the working class in such countries. Immigrants, people of colour, the LGBTQ+ community, unhoused people, etc. who now have a fully unchained rabid dog going after them.

I thus pose the following questions:

In the pursuit of weakening the EU by voting 'leave' in Brexit or a Brexit-style referendum in Europe, knowing that it's overwhelmingly supported by right-wing and outwardly fascist movements who will be in power:

  • Are we offering up the working class of imperialist countries, especially those who are most vulnerable and marginalised, as sacrificial lambs?
    • Is it an unavoidable fate in the fight against imperialism?
  • Are the working class of imperialist nations perceived as a sort-of global bourgeoisie in the global north/south relation?
  • Is it always strategically correct for the left to back such movements even when they're under the overwhelming control of right-wing and fascist groups who will inevitably rise to power in the aftermath?

I am probably very wrong in multiple areas of my conception and analysis here so please do not hold back on calling them out.