Men's Liberation

Thanks for your reply.

I can totally see that asking women to abandon feminist terminology in light of the overturning of roe vs wade and other setbacks is a tall ask, even if I feel that more gender neutral phrasings might help bridge the devide (that said they might also just encourage the people pushing these attacks through). I should also state that it's not up to me to tell anyone what to call things, my reaction is my own and they certainly don't owe me anything.

Thank you for the article. It's a really interesting read, and I agree with what is written regarding toxic masculinity as it pertains to men's behaviours. I find it also interesting that one of the reasons the author didn't like the term was that they thought that it would distract from other gender imbalances. I personally feel that we need more precision here, so limiting toxic masculinity to the cases where men are being toxic is exactly what's needed.

I also agree that some people will take offence no matter what, so I can see that there is an argument for not wasting brain power on name changes that don't change the fundamental issue.

That said I disagree with the idea that there can't be a good healthy masculinity, in the same way that there can be healthy feminity.

Chances are the healthy versions of both are much closer to the mean than the unhealthy versions, but experience both in my personal relationships as well as observing the relationships of others, either heterosexual, homosexual makes me feel that you will always have a certain dichotomy in relationships.

That said there is no reason the lady couldn't be the more "masculine", for lack of a better word, partner, but that will also require an evolution of social norms and what we find attractive, and we are no where near that yet.

Finally, regarding the situation in France, on some fronts things are pretty good. There are equal pay laws, a minister in charge of gender equality and men get 4 weeks paid paternity leave when we (or our SO) has a baby (they get 3 months). We've also moved to "parent 1", "parent 2" rather than father and mother. The family justice system also privileges split custody (and having been through the system twice, I can tell you that this isn't just words, plural of anecdote isn't data YMMV but that's my experience even if I've read the contry online)

On the other hands, there's still a pay gap, promotions are still harder for women, we have a far right problem like everyone else (the 2027 presidential election will be interesting) and there is a major domestic violence problem that isn't going away (1/3 of all murders IIRC are domestic).

Since you talked about gender neutral terms, that's another item that's hot in France. French is a traditionally genderd language: Adjectives have to accord with their subject in number and gender, there is no "they" singular or plural and in case of pluriels, the masculine form is used in case of conflict, so a couple would be masculine plural.

Certain feminists have tried to change this by creating a they (iel as a mixture of il and elle) and using the median point to mash masculine and feminine versions of adjectives together, so "the man and the women were big and beautiful" would be "Les hommes et les femmes étaient grand•e•s et b•eaux•elles" rather than "grands et beaux" (I've taken an extreme example but the point stands)

Needless to say this isn't universally loved and has become a major battle ground, between those who want the new system, those who want the old, and those who would rather something less barbaric as an alternative (say "grand(e)s et beaux/belles")

Finally, I've found the masculinist term mainly on french subreddits where it's used to describe someone who belongs to mysoginistic social circles (what is often called the manosphere).

I worry this is a fairly backwards looking perspective on masculinity. Is an association with manual labor and sports really something we should perpetuate?

Could you elaborate on that association? I don't think I get it, especially when it comes to the shop classes (which seems to be the US equivalent of the Tech and Design classes we had where I grew up).

Woodshop is a shop class I took in junior high, and the high schools near me all have strong woodshop programs. Of course, I’m in southern Oregon, a very wood-oriented region, so there’s that. I agree more attention should be paid towards full inclusion in this and other trade-type activities and job tracks. Additionally, manual labor isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

Upon a cursory Googling, it looks like sports participation is growing, not shrinking. As a long time teacher, I haven’t noticed any significant change in sports participation in my schools.

My two cents. YMMV