Doesn't change the fact they murdered people deliberately.
this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2023
117 points (83.1% liked)
News
23413 readers
2606 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Not saying they did or didn't, but we're still in fog of war territory. We know the 1200 include military personnel (who are pretty much fair game) and that there are many civilians who died to reckless IDF fire. Again, not saying they didn't, but that the whole thing needs more investigation.
I agree that an investigation is needed but Israel has been blowing up its credibility with every lie it tells and every civilian it has murdered. Who’s going to investigate and how are they going to be able to gather evidence?
I'm certain a lot of people who have investigated have been killed for doing so. 45 journalists lost in this 2 months of war.
Yeah, it's real weird there's still no breakdown of IDF casualties and civilians.
Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn't scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
... That is generally how it works where I live, yes.
Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.
Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn't the best.
No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
Basically both of you think the other one is trying to shift blame, when in actuality you're trying to make sure both are blamed.
Sums up a lot of arguments over this war.
load more comments
(15 replies)
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama's attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
load more comments
(1 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because...?
Hamas can't be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn't enough Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.
Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law,
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law.
Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.
Unfortunately you're not a civilian if you're dressed like one but holding an RPG.
I'm sure you've seen the video of the 'medic', who stripped the rifle from the wounded man instead of helping him and handed it to another 'civilian' who was firing on something, presumably IDF forces.
Just like the hospital losing protection once Hamas sets up in it, we're seeing the weaponization of international laws and the complete disregard for the rules of war here and it's fucking tragic.
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
I'm not saying they're allowed to slaughter civilians. I'm saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don't know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we're in fog of war territory.
"Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility" doesn't check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven't come out).
load more comments
(3 replies)
Now do a backflip and say Hamas is responsible for the IDF doing the same actions in Palestine.
That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.
Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.
It’s both sides that are the problem, right?
The reason Hamas attacked is that Israel is trying to genocide palestine.
load more comments
(3 replies)
load more comments
(29 replies)
You act like Israel hasn't done the same, it's literally how they got their country.
Omfg it's not a dick measuring contest. You don't need a fucking asterisk when you want to say that massacring civilians is bad
I'm perpetually baffled by this whattaboutism. What the fuck you think anyone is going to say in response?
Like, "oh, shit, I GUESS IT WAS OK THEN"?
load more comments
(11 replies)
I have criticised Israel for many years. How they treat Palestinians is barbaric. How the west has supported them in doing this is also barbaric. But what happened on that day was the fault of Hamas, there is no excuses.
More likely the fault of a zionist government that's been paying the same organization for years. You can't say the fault is solely Hamas when Israel created Hamas and let them thrive so long as they were hitting targets that were convenient to Israel.
I do find it funny everyone who's saying it's terrible that hamas is killing citizens while Israel is in the West Bank right now pushing out inhabitants with extreme violence ie. Killing citizens in a country they're occupying and destroying then economically.
These things aren't at all separable.
load more comments
(12 replies)
Beautiful people just dancing and having a good time, many probably tripping, many rolling, everyone just there to experience joy.
Bravo Hamas, not knowing that the festival was taking place, and deciding to murder hundreds on the spot, real on your feet thinking /s
I somehow feel like that's even more despicable.
It is, and it also makes all of their claims of not wanting to kill civilians drop in water. If the goal was to attack army base, then when they saw the festival they should have just moved around it, instead they decided to start shooting. At that point claims of not wanting to kill civilians just doesn't make sense anymore. It also shows they just wanted to kill without discrimination. They didn't care who gets killed as long as life was taken.
load more comments
(1 replies)
It's because it is
"Don't blame us, we smelt blood on the air and our kill-instincts activated!"
Some people can not stand techo music.
Edit: both side the issue you say? Ok!
view more: next ›