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Doesn't change the fact they murdered people deliberately.
Not saying they did or didn't, but we're still in fog of war territory. We know the 1200 include military personnel (who are pretty much fair game) and that there are many civilians who died to reckless IDF fire. Again, not saying they didn't, but that the whole thing needs more investigation.
I agree that an investigation is needed but Israel has been blowing up its credibility with every lie it tells and every civilian it has murdered. Who’s going to investigate and how are they going to be able to gather evidence?
I'm certain a lot of people who have investigated have been killed for doing so. 45 journalists lost in this 2 months of war.
Yeah, it's real weird there's still no breakdown of IDF casualties and civilians.
Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn't scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
... That is generally how it works where I live, yes.
Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.
Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn't the best.
No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
Basically both of you think the other one is trying to shift blame, when in actuality you're trying to make sure both are blamed.
Sums up a lot of arguments over this war.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama's attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
Wait what??
IDF was there killing civilians too?
And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because...?
Hamas can't be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn't enough Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.
Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.
Unfortunately you're not a civilian if you're dressed like one but holding an RPG.
I'm sure you've seen the video of the 'medic', who stripped the rifle from the wounded man instead of helping him and handed it to another 'civilian' who was firing on something, presumably IDF forces.
Just like the hospital losing protection once Hamas sets up in it, we're seeing the weaponization of international laws and the complete disregard for the rules of war here and it's fucking tragic.
I'm not saying they're allowed to slaughter civilians. I'm saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don't know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we're in fog of war territory.
"Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility" doesn't check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven't come out).
Now do a backflip and say Hamas is responsible for the IDF doing the same actions in Palestine.
That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.
Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.
It’s both sides that are the problem, right?
The reason Hamas attacked is that Israel is trying to genocide palestine.
Beautiful people just dancing and having a good time, many probably tripping, many rolling, everyone just there to experience joy.
You act like Israel hasn't done the same, it's literally how they got their country.
Omfg it's not a dick measuring contest. You don't need a fucking asterisk when you want to say that massacring civilians is bad
I'm perpetually baffled by this whattaboutism. What the fuck you think anyone is going to say in response?
Like, "oh, shit, I GUESS IT WAS OK THEN"?
I have criticised Israel for many years. How they treat Palestinians is barbaric. How the west has supported them in doing this is also barbaric. But what happened on that day was the fault of Hamas, there is no excuses.
More likely the fault of a zionist government that's been paying the same organization for years. You can't say the fault is solely Hamas when Israel created Hamas and let them thrive so long as they were hitting targets that were convenient to Israel.
I do find it funny everyone who's saying it's terrible that hamas is killing citizens while Israel is in the West Bank right now pushing out inhabitants with extreme violence ie. Killing citizens in a country they're occupying and destroying then economically.
These things aren't at all separable.
I never once stated or inferred this was totally the fault of Hamas. Hamas are solely responsible for the events of that day where many were massacred.
There is guilt all around over other events that has happened over the period since the Israelis were planted on the land after the war. I would argue more on the Israeli than the Palestinian side. But picking sides is not going to resolve the issues. At some point you have to bury the hatchet and move. While there are groups that deliberately want to antagonise the situation that will not happen.
Netanyahu was under pressure to move away from his extreme right wing policies from groups in Israel. Part of the reasoning Hamas has done this is to stop that peace process gaining traction. My position is that the US should stop funding Israel while they are running an apartheid state. It is difficult to throw all the blame at Israel when you have two factions intent on the genocide of all Israelis. Until there is a change in the positions they are hanging onto, then it will not be resolved.
Factually incorrect, the police investigations into the festival deaths show that the 1400 number is both wrong because they weren't all civilians nor were all of them killed by Hamas.
Correct. No one is picking sides, Israel has a right to defend itself sure they don't however have the right to kill ten times as many civilians and expell an entire populace they've been abusing for at least 30 years which is longer then the lifespan of most of the people being occupied. There is no burying the hatchet, it's a holy war it stops when Israel has expelled Islam from the holy land as determined by both the talmud and bible as a prerequisite for for the end of days. It's why majority Christian countries as well as countries that feel guilty about their treatment of Jews have been screeching about how Israel is totally justified in self defense though that clearly not what this is at this point.
Yes and a coordinated strike utilizing intelligence that could only be gained from an Israeli just so happened to make their long time existential threat a very much real age very much present threat. It's really really convenient, he might lose his position in the government but one of his chosen will fill the seat and the damage will be done. I guarantee Israel takes Gaza as a security measure that will lead to annexation, it was a good plan horrific but very effective.
Oh yeah, how so. Was it the history that I commented about that tipped you off somehow that I don't know the history.