this post was submitted on 17 Jan 2025
32 points (100.0% liked)

politics

22367 readers
222 users here now

Protests, dual power, and even electoralism.

Labour and union posts go to !labour@www.hexbear.net.

Take the dunks to /c/strugglesession or !the_dunk_tank@www.hexbear.net.

!chapotraphouse@www.hexbear.net is good for shitposting.

Do not post direct links to reactionary sites.

Off topic posts will be removed.

Follow the Hexbear Code of Conduct and remember we're all comrades here.

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

On the one hand, hooray for supporting the development of infrastructure in Africa and stuff. On the other hand, booooo for being a top trading partner with the Zionist Entity, and selling drones to Indonesia, and all that.

So what the Hell do you make of it all! Like I get that there's this term called "realpolitik" which is somehow relevant, but I'd like a longer explanation than just one word. Like how does the good and the bad fit together at its core?

You could certainly write tomes about this topic — many people have done exactly that — and maybe I'm being a bit incurious to expect someone to serve me a quick answer on a silver platter instead of diving into as many articles and PDF books as I can get my hands on... But I'm also just kind of tired of having such extremely underdeveloped views on the most populous AES state and country in general, after I came to unlearn or mistrust whichever views I'd had on China previously.

top 25 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Chapo_is_Red@hexbear.net 5 points 34 minutes ago (1 children)

China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese.

:de-gaulle:

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 3 points 30 minutes ago

Ahahahahahahhhahaha I didn't even realize when somebody else posted that quote that it was an actual quote and not just a silly joke

De Gaulle of all people hahahahahah

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 3 points 41 minutes ago (1 children)

I went back and forth and deleted like, 3 or 4 full comments, lol. To do any justice to understand why the PRC takes the specific stances it does economically and from a foreign policy perspective requires looking into their history, and the history of the CPC in particular. What's the gist of your understanding there? Are you familiar with how the modern economy worke, as opposed to the Deng era, and the later Mao era? I could oversimplify and say that Mao, Deng, and Xi each applied Marxism-Leninism to the conditions they saw in their own time periods, and that regularly new analysis is needed to correct as conditions change, but that isn't an answer so much as it is a cop out.

I'll leave you with a famous proverb the CPC can be described as operating by: "cross the river by feeling for the stones."

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 3 points 23 minutes ago (1 children)

China is a large semi-peripheral country that attempted to implement a market economy, without abandoning its proletarian dictatorship, in order to develop its productive forces. That's the elevator pitch and about where my understanding ends. So I couldn't confidently speak at all as to the differences between how the economy worked in different periods.

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 2 points 6 minutes ago* (last edited 3 minutes ago)

Okay! That's a good place to start. I'm not a China expert, but have been digging into it myself over the last few months because I had similar questions.

Essentially, from the POV of the modern CPC, growth was positive, but unstable towards the end of the Mao era and with the Gang of Four. During the Cultural Revolution, there was a real drive to achieve Communism soon, and this led to some degree of dogmatism over practicality. Deng adjusted, and set up an economy along with Zhou Enlai that would fold in foreign Capital while maintaining absolute supremacy, and leaving key sectors like energy, banking, steel, etc. Completely state owned, or close to it.

All along the way, the PRC watched the Soviet Union. They split, they sort of revonvened, and then the USSR fell. The PRC did not want to follow in the same footsteps, so they adopted a different policy with foreign policy. They shifted, along with Deng, to a more open form of foreign policy based on the concept of "mutual development."

Under Xi, there has been a leftward shift, with the official line being that both Mao and Deng were principled Marxist-Leninists and that a balance of the two is what is correct. This extends to foreign policy, the economy, and more. Under Xi, there has been increasing control over the markets, trapped in a "birdcage model," and BRICS and the BRI serve as driving factors towards destabilizing Imperialism without open conflict with the United States (though, if you ask me, such an event is very likely). They also always stand there for any AES country that comes into existence, so that others will not be alone, though they don't assist with revolution the way the USSR did.

That serves as a massive oversimplification, and maybe didn't even tell you anything new, but hopefully it helped!

[–] ComradeMonotreme@hexbear.net 16 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

A large country inhabited by many Chinese.

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 6 points 1 hour ago

Unbelievable!

[–] blight@hexbear.net 15 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Since Deng Xiaoping, the focus has been developing the productive forces, basically having a little capitalism as a treat, specifically trading internationally. The first and biggest of the trading partners was of course the US. So if they could trade with them, they could trade with anyone. They made a point of never interfering in the internal politics of other countries, however atrocious. I can only speculate that the legacy of the Sino-Soviet Split made them a little desperate, and maybe they were a little ashamed of having attacked Vietnam.

So the idea is that now they’re building the productive forces by trading with literally everyone until they can hold off the West. Just waiting to finally press that communism button. Any day now.

xi-button

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 10 points 2 hours ago (3 children)

This was the basic idea I'd heard, and I guess if it works it works, but the "trade with literally anyone" strategy just always struck me as kind of odd and obviously a bit gross. Like you'd think that doing things like selling weapons to imperialist forces would be counterproductive to the ends of fighting imperialism, even if it does domestically help build the productive forces... But I suppose the alternative would lead to China becoming isolated or something, right?

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 6 points 44 minutes ago* (last edited 42 minutes ago)

Like you'd think that doing things like selling weapons to imperialist forces would be counterproductive to the ends of fighting imperialism, even if it does domestically help build the productive forces... But I suppose the alternative would lead to China becoming isolated or something, right?

Correct. What this achieves is personal investment by the bourgeoisie in the free participation of China in world markets. They lose money if China is disconnected, and thus they as individuals want it to stay connected even if they understand that for the wider interests of their class it is a negative in the longterm. Each individual member of the bourgeoisie still wants personal enrichment and is still driven by the pursuit of capital, since keeping China connected means they can acquire more capital then that's what they want.

In essence the entire strategy is to disincentivise the bourgeoisie from seeking to destroy China, as they did with the USSR, or as they do with Cuba, the DPRK, etc.

What this leads to however is untested. We can only speculate. What they have done with placing branches of the CPC inside every large business however is the infrastructural groundwork for a transition partial/fully socialist economy with a minimum of pushback.

[–] Biggay@hexbear.net 2 points 1 hour ago

There's a lot to measure there, suppose a border nation is engaging in blatant capitalist style imperialism (kyrgyzstan invades the uzbeks) they need resources to create and build that imperial machine; do you continue to trade raw resources and garner influence as even the rest of the global community begins to draw away from them? Do you try to use that influence to reign in that neighbor, or even try to develop your own productive forces by staking a larger claimin those industries? Do you also draw away from the nation and continue to isolate them, weakening your industry, perhaps putting a target on yourself? Do you use you own miltary forces to put a stop to it? All of these approaches have been tried in some form or another in recent history, the only one which seems to result in anything remotely positive is to be the trading partner. Come hell or high water, non intervention has always proven an effective and politically easy solution, and theres historical precedent for China especially to act in such a way, when it didnt throughout the mid century (this had some to do with the Sino-Soviet split) it lead to insane outcomes like buddying up with the US to beat up Afghanistan and Vietnam, fund Pol Pot, etc. All are actions we can say didnt help China in the long run and are frankly embarrassing.

[–] blight@hexbear.net 2 points 1 hour ago

Yeah, it is odd, but it is as you say, the alternative is isolation. You could argue that selling arms to imperialists is kind of like paying a “don’t kill us” tribute. You could argue that China is not yet self-sufficient enough to pull the rug, or you could argue that they have actually reached that maturity, or you could argue that they are stuck in a trap and will never pull any rug, or that they never even had any intention of it.

There’s another dimension of making the West economically dependent on them. So yes, selling some weapons now, but in the long term, replacing the West’s industrial capacity so that they can’t keep up. But even our ghouls are smart enough to realize this and have specifically prevented offshoring a lot of military production, at a huge cost.

[–] TrippyFocus@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

To help understand the background/history for their current strategy I’d recommend the 4/5 episodes of Guerrilla history podcast that has Ken Hammond on it. Here’s the link to the intro episode It’ll be detailed up to the 80s reform period and then briefly cover after that. It’s based on Kens book “China's revolution and the quest for a socialist future”. haven’t read the book yet but planning on getting it.

Basically they switched to a market economy to develop their country and raise the standard of living while keeping the core parts socialist.

As for more specific answers on stuff over the last decade I myself am looking for that currently so will share once I find some.

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 4 points 2 hours ago

HELL yeah thanks for the podcast

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 hours ago (3 children)

There are no quick answers or even an easy way to understand China. It's over 10k years of history and that's just what we know.

However, for your particular question, the one thing to understand is the ONLY thing China cares about is the Chinese people. The rest of the world could literally be on fire and everyone in the midst of genocide and China will do nothing. The Chinese strongly believe that every nation should just do whatever they want as long as they trade with China. The reasoning behind this is ironically from Europe, or at least Europe gets the credit. It's called westphanlian system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system

The basic core of this is that China doesn't know any better than the country itself on how to rule. Maybe that country needs to commit genocide, China doesn't know and it shouldn't fall on China to try to fix it. Just look at American Adventurism and how it's affected Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, I could go on. Why try to impose your way of life on someone else if they don't want it anyway and will result in terrorism when the people revolt.

Unless of course, it's within China. If you don't like it leave as USA likes to constantly report, many people do. There's no travel bans, there's no restrictions on their citizens to force them to stay. Their only rule seems to be don't leave and attack China trying to make them change if you do.

So, ultimately to your question, the answer is China will sell pretty much anything to anyone if they ask. They're not big on restrictions outside of the country. It leads to some very strange actions to people who think a country should meddle in the business of others, but if you have westphalian values, it all makes perfect sense.

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

I don't think that national self-determination is rooted in the Westfalian system. Nations predate states by a long while. The opposite of national self-determination is domination and the middle ground between them is chauvinism. Domination is when you force another nation of people to bend to your will directly. Chauvinism is when you make decisions based on your belief that another nation of people ought to choose the way you choose. Neither have historically worked out for anyone.

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 hour ago

I'm just quoting political theory professors. I agree with you that it probably didn't really originate in Europe. As I stated in my original post. That said, western nations stealing the credit is kind of their M.O.

[–] TrippyFocus@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I don’t disagree since it seems that way with a lot of their actions but I wonder how you explain some things like the recent donations to Cuba to help build their energy infrastructure?

Stuff like that makes me think at least a portion of the party would like to do more but they’re careful since they still feel they have a bit to go before more confronting global capitalism more directly. Hopefully we see more things that to start pushing global socialism since we’re kind of on a time clock with climate change.

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 hour ago

That's realpolitiks for China. If they see there's a political and financial advantage to donating, they'll do it. But that's super not transparent and anyone saying they know why is lying or would be arrested for leaks.

My theory is Cuba has a lot of fertile land that isn't properly maintained. China wants food, it makes sense to support them to get their export values up for Chinese consumers. Also, China owns habanos sa.

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

Very interesting, thank you.

Edit: It does leave me wondering though, how average people in China feel about this principle.

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Dunno, most people I've spoken to do not really think about the rest of the world. Though in fairness, you could say the same about US citizens.

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Wow imagine not thinking about the rest of the world, couldn't be me (lives in a country with a population smaller than like 19 Chinese cities)

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 hour ago

On a personal level I actually think it's sad. For both China as well as the US. They're both so large and vast that just exploring these nation's various geological and cultural differences would take a lifetime. Extensive journals and books have been written about their unique cities and states (zhou) that literally fill libraries.

However, I feel this amount of insularism creates ignorance and prevents people from a better understanding of the global community around them. I would argue that's why they're both the most hated tourists in the world. So it's not a good thing in my opinion.

[–] Riffraffintheroom@hexbear.net 3 points 2 hours ago

Being my one, my only, my everything.