On the one hand, hooray for supporting the development of infrastructure in Africa and stuff. On the other hand, booooo for being a top trading partner with the Zionist Entity, and selling drones to Indonesia, and all that.

So what the Hell do you make of it all! Like I get that there's this term called "realpolitik" which is somehow relevant, but I'd like a longer explanation than just one word. Like how does the good and the bad fit together at its core?

You could certainly write tomes about this topic — many people have done exactly that — and maybe I'm being a bit incurious to expect someone to serve me a quick answer on a silver platter instead of diving into as many articles and PDF books as I can get my hands on... But I'm also just kind of tired of having such extremely underdeveloped views on the most populous AES state and country in general, after I came to unlearn or mistrust whichever views I'd had on China previously.

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[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 hours ago (3 children)

There are no quick answers or even an easy way to understand China. It's over 10k years of history and that's just what we know.

However, for your particular question, the one thing to understand is the ONLY thing China cares about is the Chinese people. The rest of the world could literally be on fire and everyone in the midst of genocide and China will do nothing. The Chinese strongly believe that every nation should just do whatever they want as long as they trade with China. The reasoning behind this is ironically from Europe, or at least Europe gets the credit. It's called westphanlian system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system

The basic core of this is that China doesn't know any better than the country itself on how to rule. Maybe that country needs to commit genocide, China doesn't know and it shouldn't fall on China to try to fix it. Just look at American Adventurism and how it's affected Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, I could go on. Why try to impose your way of life on someone else if they don't want it anyway and will result in terrorism when the people revolt.

Unless of course, it's within China. If you don't like it leave as USA likes to constantly report, many people do. There's no travel bans, there's no restrictions on their citizens to force them to stay. Their only rule seems to be don't leave and attack China trying to make them change if you do.

So, ultimately to your question, the answer is China will sell pretty much anything to anyone if they ask. They're not big on restrictions outside of the country. It leads to some very strange actions to people who think a country should meddle in the business of others, but if you have westphalian values, it all makes perfect sense.

[–] TrippyFocus@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I don’t disagree since it seems that way with a lot of their actions but I wonder how you explain some things like the recent donations to Cuba to help build their energy infrastructure?

Stuff like that makes me think at least a portion of the party would like to do more but they’re careful since they still feel they have a bit to go before more confronting global capitalism more directly. Hopefully we see more things that to start pushing global socialism since we’re kind of on a time clock with climate change.

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 hours ago

That's realpolitiks for China. If they see there's a political and financial advantage to donating, they'll do it. But that's super not transparent and anyone saying they know why is lying or would be arrested for leaks.

My theory is Cuba has a lot of fertile land that isn't properly maintained. China wants food, it makes sense to support them to get their export values up for Chinese consumers. Also, China owns habanos sa.

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (2 children)

I don't think that national self-determination is rooted in the Westfalian system. Nations predate states by a long while. The opposite of national self-determination is domination and the middle ground between them is chauvinism. Domination is when you force another nation of people to bend to your will directly. Chauvinism is when you make decisions based on your belief that another nation of people ought to choose the way you choose. Neither have historically worked out for anyone.

[–] SocialistDovahkiin@hexbear.net 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Sorry, I don't really care if it doesn't "work out", if someone is able to dominate Israel and force them to cease genocide and hand over their land to the Palestinian people then they should. All of the times it hasn't "worked out" has been because the domination of other countries has been done for colonialism and extraordinary levels of exploitation. Acting like the good-faith exporting of revolution is in any way similar to what the US does shows a disgusting amount of trust in the US' own reasoning. It is much more likely the PRC just doesn't export revolution because they would be carpet bombed if they did. Even if an ideological belief in self determination is the justification for it internally.

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 hours ago

I'm just quoting political theory professors. I agree with you that it probably didn't really originate in Europe. As I stated in my original post. That said, western nations stealing the credit is kind of their M.O.

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 2 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

Very interesting, thank you.

Edit: It does leave me wondering though, how average people in China feel about this principle.

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Dunno, most people I've spoken to do not really think about the rest of the world. Though in fairness, you could say the same about US citizens.

[–] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Wow imagine not thinking about the rest of the world, couldn't be me (lives in a country with a population smaller than like 19 Chinese cities)

[–] Joncash2@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 hours ago

On a personal level I actually think it's sad. For both China as well as the US. They're both so large and vast that just exploring these nation's various geological and cultural differences would take a lifetime. Extensive journals and books have been written about their unique cities and states (zhou) that literally fill libraries.

However, I feel this amount of insularism creates ignorance and prevents people from a better understanding of the global community around them. I would argue that's why they're both the most hated tourists in the world. So it's not a good thing in my opinion.