~~pharmacists solely being distributors of pre-ordained medication has no detrimental effects on humans. 🫠 the US is great to its people, and has very good healthcare practices!!~~ (livestream is on the 27th and i am excite, but not involved at all)

https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/talk/ASBXWW/

stream link for those interested:

https://streaming.media.ccc.de/38c3

EDIT: my lack of capitalization and poor word choice has confused people. this event is about making legal, tested for efficacy medication only. pharmacists are good. doctors are good. the cost of medication and other hurdles that prevent people from having access to medication are not.

EDIT 2: i looked into the 4 Theives Vinegar Collective (breifly, just on wikipedia) and i did not realize that they made the EpiPencil, which is an open-source device that injects a mesured dose of epinephrine (a medication that can be bought from a trusted and legal distributor). that's awesome stuff, but it's less awesome that they now want to share chemistry knowlege that they don't necissarily have a full understanding of, and push automated synthesis for people who also don't have the foundational knowledge to ensure safety. not really great. i guess that's what happens when healthcare is entirely for-profit, and inaccessable to so many people.

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[–] desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone 51 points 2 days ago (11 children)

I my be in favor of taking control of ones own life (including medicine) but is just not true that handcrafted things are always better, a shitty artisan will make worse products than a good factory.

[–] untorquer@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago

That must assume the factory to be managed with integrity. Pharmaceuticals are usually held to a high standard. Chemistry in general is done best in larger batches with tightly controlled processes. But that also doesn't mean a skilled chemist can't make a perfectly fine batch with a good setup.

4Thieves is good stuff though. Consider their epipen. They cut the cost by a factor of something like 1/30th of market. They still sourced the epinephrine from a commercial company tho.

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[–] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 30 points 2 days ago

"Despite the fact that for most of human history bodily autonomy [...] was the norm"

LOL

[–] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Lmao, we have "don't drink this" labels on bleach. But sure, this is a good idea

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 day ago

YOU are telling ME (a very smart person btw) what to do 😡

-consumes a whole bottle of chlorine bleach in protest of the implication of being told what to do-

[–] nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

They make business cards dosed for an abortion and have shared the instructions online. Look up miso card

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

i actually just learned that today... i am realizing i misunderstood the main purpose (probably) of the group. they are very focused on bodily autonamy, and pushing the boundaries of what's allowed, as far as information sharing goes.

the lead guy also was suggesting heroin dealers lace their product with medication to prevent the spread of hepatitis, which sounds good, but doing so could result in an even more deadly super strain of the infection. he could have suggested wholly against sharing injection equipment, or emphasized the importance of "safe injection" sites that are staffed by medical personel, to help titrate the dose and safely end their addiction. at least he's not telling people to synthesize suboxone at home, but ugh.

i don't necissarily trust the information the they're spreading, due to that and other factors, such as the lack of medical/synthesis knowledge outside of clandestine MDMA production. i do see that they do this more as "keep this stuff legal" measure, but a lot of their decisions seem reckless. maybe to further their cause/point? idk, it's a mess.

[–] nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yeah i only looked at it briefly the other day when it came up. I like the idea behind it but can't comment on the science/chemistry so am overall hesitant to trust it. The miso cards seemed relatively simple to make and use though, and i believe without risk of overdose at the dosing used. Given the US politics going to start cracking down on abortions, i think the miso cards are a good idea. Id need to look more into the other things though before trusting the group overall.

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

yeah but key issue is - they don't make it - they just take it from veterinary drugs. prostaglandins and steroids in particular would be very bad fit for a backyard chemistry - these are greasy, so crystallization is out, every step requires column chromatography for purification, analysis would probably include HPLC/MS just to know what's there

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 20 points 2 days ago (16 children)

I think you're posting in the wrong neighborhood, RFK Jr.

[–] Arbiter@lemmy.world 31 points 2 days ago (4 children)

These guys aren’t about alternative medicine, they’re about DIY manufacturing actual medicine to get around inflated prices.

[–] Canonical_Warlock@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 2 days ago

The OP doesn't get that across at all. Just going by the OP I would expect that they would start trying to sell me bleach to drink.

[–] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

That's a mighty fine line to walk 🧐

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

neither have any meaningful quality control, this would get people killed if it wasn't juicero for chemistry that it is

[–] Arbiter@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Sure, but if the alternative is not getting the medicine..

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago

Well, there's actually a third point on your scale, which is "The opposite of medicine."

If you take something for pain management and it kills you, is that better than not having the pain meds at all? For some people that's a complicated question; chronic pain can absolutely make someone wish they were dead. So maybe someone is desperate enough to try this in spite of the risks. But they should at least know those risks, right?

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

they've made juicero of backyard chemistry. everything you can do with that bullshit jar strapped to arduino you can do with hotplate and standard glassware - and cheaper - and even more because their setup doesn't allow you to run reflux sanely among others. putting procedures as a set of instructions for said arduino is no substitute for actual expertise. iirc their procedure for naloxone can fail in such a way that another pharmaceutical of opposite activity can be made (oxymorphone). there's zero analysis or quality control that would catch this. they're trying to generate synthesis pathways with ai. laufer has no actual training in chemistry, his degree is in maths and i suspect heavy case of engineer syndrome

there's also little consideration, if any, about purification and waste management. do you feel lucky?

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

that sounds..... questionable, almost at best. i will still probably tune in, but i'm now prepared to be kind of horrified honestly. i'm not sure someone with a math degree and no chemistry experience is the best source for this kind of information, especially when the substances being produced are meant to be consumed.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

even with a chemistry degree, it’s very common for professionals to overestimate others ability to comprehend their field, and for beginners to overestimate their ability

when it comes to synthesising drugs, that’s a recipe for disaster

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago

good thing these guys seem in love with automating the process... 🙃

leaving most of the brain-thinkie parts up to an arduino totally solves the "this might kill someone" factor. no-knowledge synthesis is the future! (/s for anyone wanting to toss reagents in a jar, and hope robots are infallable)

really tho, mistakes that make fries taste bad, or twist an ankle don't have shit on barely messing up a step in a synthesis that is to be consumed. it is like their reckless abandon is also intended to be a part of their cause, which makes things more confusing, and raises even more ethical questions.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

If that's what they stand for then the imagine is completely mistaken. DIY medicine manufacturing is perfectly legal unless you're selling it or it's a controlled substance.

[–] regdog@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

Are you addressing the man or the worm?

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[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 10 points 2 days ago (4 children)

You better fix this. Start with the first sentence. For most of history, people died young and nobody knew why. And it was horrible shit.

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[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

I think the problem in this case isn't regulation, but that the regulation's being managed by knobheads. I do agree that said regulations must be fair and allow anyone who genuinely needs access to have safe and controlled access, that they should work for the benefit of the people and not the interests of shareholders/lobbyists/string-pullers, yes.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to allow everyone unrestricted access to every medicine under the sun willy-nilly. One such example would be antibiotics, which, while very effective when used appropriately, have been demonstrated to suffer massively from diminishing returns over time. Allowing people to self-medicate with such a substance would just lead to both increases in infections, as well as chemical damage to one's organism.

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

the constituents' best interest unfortunately doesn't make the senate/congress any money. it would be nice if they had priorites outside making easy money by bending to every corporate lobby.

unrestricted access would be a nightmare. Mexico's strategy of allowing trained pharmacists to dispense basic meds (like a z-pac) seems like a happy medium. seeing a doctor for stuff like that can be expensive and time consuming, and like an excuse for insurance companies to profit.

[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

That's my main problem, that we're not doing much which is in the interest of people, we're mostly just slapping rational-sounding labels on different forms of greed-driven practices. I agree that we need to rethink pretty much everything about medical regulations, if not to change, then to at least ensure that what's there is uncorrupted.

That may be a potential solution, yes! Would most likely require bringing changes to the educational system as well (I'm just assuming, I have no first-hand experience with either studying, or practicing in this domain, but a more robust educational system would solve a lot of problems from the get go) in order to ensure that pharmacists have all the resources possible at their disposal. Or maybe it's just down to perception, one of those "having a custodial job is shameful" preconceptions, like "pharmacists are less reliable than doctors in establishing prescriptions because a doctor's a doctor..." Still working on identifying my biases, I apologise.

Of course, my ideal would be that every single person on this planet have free access to medical care whenever and for whatever reason, so seeing a doctor wouldn't put half of somebody's family tree in debt for a sprained ankle...

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

i haven't had the education to be a pharmacist, but conversations with a few of them has made pretty annoyed for them. there is way more training already than one would expect, but they are doomed to almost exclusively count pills and read off the occasional warning label, essentially. medication interactions, conditions affecting efficacy of specifc meds, and many other factors get offloaded to already overworked doctors. at least the insurers get paid twice, from the doctor visit, and the pharmacy... 🙃

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[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I think the problem in this case isn't the regulation, but that the regulation's being managed by knobheads

this is definitely a take. have you ever heard of GMP? these rules were written in blood

[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If you're referring to Good Manufacturing Practice, yes, although I didn't dive too much into it. And based on what I know of it, I'm not sure I get your point.

If it's not that, then I'm completely in the weeds on this.

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

they definitely don't do anything close to GMP

[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Oh, agreed! I was referring more to the concept of regulation as a generic denominator, I completely agree that we'll need to establish and maintain far better regulations and standards than we have so far!

That's why I see this as a "knobheads being in charge" problem, they pretty much dictate everything related to regulations. In my view, replacing them with people who actually have the interest of the people at heart would cut straight at the root of the problem.

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 days ago

the regulations you're looking for is single payer nationalized healthare and has nothing to do with whatever compliance crimes they're doing. GMP is fine as it is

[–] regdog@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Is that the plot of the new Resident Evil game?

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