Hi, I’m Ron Reagan, an unabashed atheist not afraid of burning in hell. Thanks for letting people know about FFRF.
this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2023
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Just donated. Thanks for making us aware of this org.
Great! I will be joining next month most likely.
Where is this, and is the school public? Obviously private schools should be illegal, but in the UK religious schools can get away with tonnes by saying 'it's a private school' so apparently it's exempt from the law.
This is in the U.S., which is where the FFRF operates.
I just heard about the freedom from religion foundation now, and although its name was quite descriptive, it didn't indicate that it was only US based.
Yeah in the US private schools can and do teach literally anything, I was told evolution was fake constantly growing up, even when I took AP biology in 9th grade the teacher made sure to constantly clarify that she had to teach us evolution for the AP exam but it was absolutely fake and to come talk to her if we ever started to think it was real. Insanity.
May I ask what event made you realize that they were wrong and that evolution was indeed real?
Yeah I never was super into the whole religion thing from the get go, I believed it bc it was convenient but never really thought or cared about it all that much. Around 8th grade. a year before the bio class, I was just reading Wikipedia until I stumbled across a page on human ancestors (Australopithecus iirc). I found it both very interesting and kind of creepy and made me rethink things, either take the word of my teachers or look at all this actual evidence presented as fact by something as trustworthy as Wikipedia. Not long after that I stopped believing all together, but I still put on a mask and graduated from that Christian school.
Where does the FFRF stand on the pledge of allegiance?
Probably where the law stands since West Virginia v. Barnette in 1943- no one can be forced to say it.
Force is one thing. What about peer pressure, including making snarky comments when students or faculty decline to join in?
The FFRF is a legal organization. They don't deal with social problems.
Care to share some details? I am also a teacher atheist, but I’m curious to hear where you’re coming from. Are you a “no religious anything in the public schools” type, or was the iconography itself egregious in some way?
edit: I don’t get all the downvotes. I was just wondering where this particular person drew the line. They answered me and I appreciate it, but I’d also love to hear from some of the downvoters on why my question was so objectionable.
Teachers are not allowed to promote their religion in a public school. Putting a cross and Bible quote on the wall is establishing a religion, which is a First Amendment violation. It has been found to be so in the courts over and over. It is illegal. Also, not every child is Christian. My daughter is an atheist who is ethnically Jewish. That cross does not make her feel welcome in that classroom.
Thanks for your answer. I hope I didn’t upset you, as I really didn’t meant to. I was just curious as to where you drew your line on this subject.
Nope, I wasn't upset at all. I was happy to explain it.
Using tax money to promote mental illness and child abuse is kind of egregious.
Is there any amount of religious iconography that is not egregious in a shared public space like a school (school, hospital, library etc)? I'd love to understand where your curiousity is coming from
'Public space' and 'government-funded space' are not strictly the same.
It's reasonable where it's strictly educational, and no faith is getting preferential treatment. Qurans, bibles and other religious books in the library? Sure. A display on 'religions of the world'. Fine.
A teacher having a small cross or scripture somewhere near their desk, in the same way they might have a picture of their spouse/kids? Probably fine, but only if you'd also be happy with Arabic or Hebrew scripture, or a Satanist pentagram.
Yeah, totally getcha, but also wouldnt want to see it lets say displayed on public roads, public parks, public trains etc. I cant really think of a public space that isn't government owned or funded? Not saying things seen public by the way, e.g. a church while driving on a public road... which is obviously on private land, or someones house, while walking past it. But you betcha I wouldnt appreciate scripture on the sidewalk.
I drove past dozens of crosses every day on the side of public roads. They're often covered in cheap plastic flowers or other trash. I wish they were gone. Memorialize your dead in your own space. That stuff shouldn't be cluttering up public roadways.
I'd also be fine with it in the context of a historical lesson or a survey of world religions. It's rather difficult to discuss history frankly without discussing religion's outsized role in a lot of it. So perhaps an image of a knight riding under a cross wouldn't be out of place, so long as it was properly contextualized.
I mean, Jesus said some things that go along with what we teach in our SEL curriculum, so having a scripture quote regarding the treatmeant of other humans doesn’t seem awful to me. It could be argued that Dr MLK Jr was also a religious leader, so is having quotes from him appropriate or not?
Also, damn with all the downvotes - I was just asking where this person was coming from. I wasn’t saying they were wrong, but I’m also not someone who would make a big deal about religious iconography which was not particularly intrusive, so I was trying to see where they were drawing the line.
I kinda get you, but people dont typically say "Dr MLK Jr the great christian, who was also an activist" in favour of "Dr MLK Jr the great activist, who was also Christian." One defines him, from the context of society that is, more than the other. Instead of splitting hairs though, we have 8 Billion people alive today, and untold historical figures, im sure the curriculum wont suffer if posters about Jesus, Buddha or Mother Theresa aren't on the wall.
Also, hope you dont take the downvotes personally. People are telling you they dont agree with your viewpoint here, not judging your overall character by a single thought.
I’m not saying I would promote the use of religious iconography, I’m saying I don’t find all religious iconography objectionable. Also, many of my co-workers have personally chosen items on their walls, and if they had a Jesus quote that doesn’t necessarily promote Christianity, I wouldn’t find it objectionable.
I don’t take the downvotes personally, but the problem I have is I did not express my viewpoint. I asked a question, and I think some people made an assumption about my intentions. That’s a bit frustrating.
Fwiw I think this was a fine question. I’m an atheist who was raised Christian and left it, so I find myself reacting more emotionally towards Christianity in a negative way than towards other religions, but in spite of that I still draw my own personal line pretty pragmatically. I don’t see religion coming close to going away during my lifetime, and I also know a lot of Christians who are great, caring people. (Even though I know some shitheads too.) So I try to teach my daughter that we can think a religion is wrong and even stupid, but we should never use that to pre-judge any given person solely on their religion, and we shouldn’t be rude to people about their religion.
I think OP was perfectly within their rights to do what they did, and I’m very happy to know that the FFRF does this sort of thing. For me personally, I would probably need more direct pushing of religion from a teacher to go to the FFRF.
For me personally, I would probably need more direct pushing of religion from a teacher to go to the FFRF.
This was my thought too, but if OPs daughter expressed her discomfort and they feared repercussions if the teacher knew who reported them, I can see why they took this course.
Thanks for your response!
Yep, 100% agree. If my daughter expressed feeling unwelcome then I’m doing something.
Not a downvoter, but I'd be willing to bet that it is because many people are used to people saying similar things to what you have said, but in bad faith. The Internet is full of trolls and a genuine openness to having discussion with people with differing opinions is not to be taken for granted.
I wondered if that was the case. I don’t feel as strongly about it as OP, but the fact their their daughter felt uncomfortable because of it is a good enough reason for them to take action. I’m not a parent or a religious person, so I will never have to deal with this, but I was curious as both a teacher and a person new to online atheist communities as to what the line was for OP and also others in this community. I was just thinking that if I were a parent, the iconography would have to be something over the line (ex: the 10 commandments vs one of Jesus’s more humanitarian quotes). Obviously, my theoretical child expressing discomfort would be the line if that were the case, but it might be different if i were just to observe it in the classroom.