TenForward: Where Every Vulcan Knows Your Name

It's an interesting discussion. Not really what I expect from a meme sub but something out of r/daystrominstitute .

I think Kirk's argument (essentially that there's no ethical or moral justification for not even attempting to save them) is predicated on the fact that no-win situations of that specific type don't exist in reality.

That kind of situations happen, Jim”

Kirk takes a sip.

“Do they, Bones? We’ve been at this for three years. Tell me bones, how many times have we faced a real no-win situation? A certain death in face of helping people? I write the logs, Bones. The answer is never. Not once. Sure, we lost feathers, and couldn’t always save everybody. But each time we made it, Bones, and each time, we saved people. The only reason the Maru is a no-win situation is because someone decided it should be. To make a point.”

He is of course right in that if you attempt rescue, the Kobayashi Maru sim will literally keep spawning enemy ships until you're dead. So it was designed to be unwinnable in logical sense that goes beyond the practicalities of tactics and crew competence.

Kirk's argument is that making the pragmatic choice of just leaving the ship to it's fate is not justifiable because such scenarios (infinitely spawning enemies) don't exist, and even making cadets take this course and conditioning them to make the pragmatic choice is therefore immoral.

I think there's more detail that can be added to this though - in the Kobayashi Maru sim every cadet knows what the sim is before they go in there. It's not some secret - they all know it's unwinnable. If you somehow knew that it was unwinnable then the ethics of leaving them are tenable depending on your beliefs. But in reality you can't know. You shouldn't pretend to know.

I think a key part of what Kirk is trying argue here is that in reality, you cannot ever truly know that the situation is completely hopeless, and your duty as a Starfleet officer should be to try. Try your hardest. Do what you can. Save who you can. Fight. Try.

The thing that offends Kirk so much about this scenario is that it gives officers a ethical license to not even try, something that is completely antithetical to his conception of being a Starfleet officer.

On that count, I think he's right.

This is the best kind of Trek right here. I could see Kirk saying this, for sure. I do think Bikes would agree with Kirk, though. McCoy always prioritized saving lives.

It’s neat to see established characters discussing something we consider a given, but there’s nothing esoteric about it. Star Trek as a franchise has always been bald-faced about what the Kobayashi Maru test is and why every cadet has to take it.

“How we face death is at least as important as how we face life.” - Admiral Kirk, Wrath of Khan

“Furthermore, you have failed to divine the purpose of the test.”

“Enlighten me again.”

“The purpose is to experience fear - fear in the face of certain death. To accept that fear and maintain control of oneself and one’s crew. This is a quality expected in every Starfleet Captain” - Spock and Kirk, Star Trek 2009

Starfleet learns two important things about each officer-in-training during this test. Whether or not they choose to ignore standing orders and face certain destruction to do the right thing, and how well they handle it when that gamble causes them and everyone they are responsible for to lose.

I imagine stuff like that ends up in every officer’s permanent record. I imagine it determines if Ensign Skippy goes on to command a first-contact vessel carrying the banner of the Federation or a patrol ship in Sol Sector… or be a Captain at all.

So... I'd go ahead and say that Kirk here is wrong.

The simulation isn't about teaching starfleet prospective officers anything. a single "This is stupid but we have to go through it," simulation going to convince anything of any one or "teach" all the bullshit they say it does.

The real point of the exercise is that it's a filter. Remember, the crew performance is observed. People are watching. This scenario and exercise is mandatory for all star fleet cadets because they're looking for people that never get involved in the first place. Or are willing to follow orders or "greater good" bullshit.

Kirk was likely noticed for being extremely determined and a certain disregard for stupid rules. It also sets him up for being passed over on the seedier side of starfleet because, interestingly, that certain disregard for stupid rules comes from his integrity... which... is why Kirk was involved in episodes like Private Little War. (despite maybe not being "inside" he was still considered "useful" enough when he was in a convnient place?)

This is a rampant fan theory, sure, but section 31 would have to recruit from somewhere, and the academy is a wonderful place for that. Slipping a few exercises to see how cadets respond is... well, it'd be more surprising if they didn't.