Asklemmy

You may want to familiarize yourself with the philosophy of Stoicism. It sounds very similar to what you describe. I’d recommend starting with a “sampler” like “The Daily Stoic,” by Ryan Holiday. Epictetus and Marcus Auralius are two of the biggest names in terms of “fathers” of this philosophy.

Don’t go by whatever impression Hollywood or society may have left you with about the word “stoic.” It doesn’t mean “without emotion.”

You sound well adjusted.

I do one to probe one point, though… Coukd your motives for living this way be pride? A feeling that you being able to live up to your own (self-described as “high”) moral standards is something that makes you better than others?

The reason I ask: it’s not a bad thing to feel a sense of pride for having control over yourself, but it can be a weakness to obtaining true happiness because it also depends on the performance of other people. (If someone else exhibits more self-mastery than you, would that make you feel less happy about your own performance?)

If pride isn’t a factor, it sounds like you’re in a good spot.

Perfection is exhausting. I struggle with it. My brain tells me that if I'm not the perfect friend or know the right things no one will like me. It has consumed my life so far and has lead me to make very bad and disastrous choices.

More than that though, it's boring. I am so tired of spending my life trying to figure out what the right action is. I would much rather have fun with friends or rewarding sex or find an interesting personal project to work on.

Honestly, this feels like you're setting the bar way too high. Trying to eliminate every negative feeling or impulse, like anger, jealousy, egoism, or desire for power, isn't just unrealistic, it's too much. Life is messy, and part of being human is dealing with these emotions in healthy ways, not pretending they don't exist or trying to suppress them entirely.

What happens when you suppress emotions like anger or jealousy? They don't just disappear, they get buried and eventually come out in unexpected or unhealthy ways. It sounds like you're putting yourself under a lot of pressure to be perfect, and while aiming to be better isn't a bad thing, it's easy to burn out or become emotionally numb when you hold yourself to impossible standards.

At the end of the day, what's wrong with a little bit of ego, some healthy ambition, or even feeling angry when something goes wrong? These things aren't inherently bad or toxic, they're just part of being human. Overemphasizing moral purity can cause you to miss out on the richness of life and emotional depth.

And honestly, why is megalomania such a bad thing? If you're fully aware of your drive and you're not hurting anyone, is it really so bad to think you're capable of achieving something extraordinary? If you're not deluded about your abilities and keep it in check, what's the harm in believing you're on a higher level than most?

An interesting question, thanks for asking it. I'm guessing I'm not the only one thinking about their own behaviour in framing an answer.

Two questions for you:

1. You accidentally drop a plate in the kitchen and it smashes. How do you feel? Are you angry? Frustrated that you've behaved less than perfectly?

2. Your friend does the same thing. How do you feel then?

If you're like me and more likely to be forgiving to them than yourself for what is obviously an accident, why?

Why do you treat yourself harsher than yourself?

For me, it's because at some level I consider myself better than them so shouldn't have made such a mistake, even though at other levels, I think almost everyone else is better than me. Looking at my own mind logically for just this scenario, I have to conclude it cannot be trusted on the matter of self image. I think that's accurate.

And how do you define behaving perfectly? That's a subjective standard, you cannot achieve it to everyone's satisfaction. You've set yourself up for failure - that doesn't feel healthy, it feels like a trap set that's impossible not to walk into. I'm pretty sure nobody trustworthy has ever has a moment of absolute clarity that allows them to answer all these questions satisfactorily - I'm getting old now and as far as I can see, we're all just trying to figure this stuff out as best we can.

There's the phrase - be kind to yourself. As I've got older, I think that's more true than ever. I've tried to honour it, alongside being kind to others. I don't always succeed, but I figure that as long as I'm trying, it's /good enough/.

Like you, I'm an Athiest. I'm not living to a standard to score points. I try not to mostly live within society's norms because I'm selfish, and it's easier than not doing so. Upset people cause fuss. Breaking laws has consequences. I dislike fuss so I try not to cause it.

I hope you find your way. I think your therapist is on the right track, but what answers are right for you aren't always clear to see.

I think it's pretty normal to hold yourself to a standard you don't impose on others, and I do think it's somewhat problematic, like perfectionism is. If you get mad at yourself for messing up and not being inhumanly perfect then yeah that's not good. You are a person too, and should give yourself consideration.

If you just mean you try to think before you act and consider how your words and actions affect others, I would hope everyone does that!

You didn't mention it, but have you considered how it would feel if you had a bad day and didn't live up to this standard?

You're framing it like a moral philosophy, but feeling anger is not a morally bad thing. Neither is jealousy, or selfishness, at times. It's just part of the human experience, and we can avoid it most of the time, but occasionally we're going to need to focus on ourselves and our needs and our feelings.

Similarly, it's impossible to avoid having an ego 100% of the time. Honestly, it sounds like this quality is part of your identity-- would you like yourself less if you lived up to this standard imperfectly?

I don't think it's unusual to want to be a good person and to want to control our worst impulses. But to describe it as "trying to act like a saint", and saying you're "deaf to your own needs"-- those are concerning statements.

I don't think anyone can speak for you or guess what's going on from the outside. But if I were you, I'd be exploring if there's fear underlying these impulses. Fear of judgment: how do you think the world would perceive you if you stopped being so strict about it? Fear of badness: how does it feel when you have a bad day and you fail to be perfect? Do you resent yourself? Fear of impurity: do you feel like other people are bad when they have these natural reactions? Do you fear being like other people who are experiencing and dealing with normal feelings?

Moralities aside, some find it liberating to stop caring what is & isn’t considered “weird.” Conformity definitely has its advantages, but at least consider the possibility that, for you, it may not be worth the costs. Take it from Al, or DEVO themselves for that matter.

As for morality, I’m not really a fan of it in its conventional senses. Philosophy prof. Hans-Georg Moeller, author of The Moral Fool: A Case for Amorality.

• The Problem with Sam Harris' "Morality"
• If Morality Exists Everything Is Permitted. (Q&A)
• Hans-Georg Moeller - The Moral Fool: A Case for Amorality [interview]

I don't think I understand what you're talking about. Perhaps some examples would help.

I do think some people hold themselves to too low of a standard, though. There's a song I like that has the line "I don't want you to romanticize falling the fuck apart ". I think some people are just like "well, I ghosted my friend and didn't do my tasks at work and didn't feed my cat but life is hard am I right? No other way I could be. Time to go drink alone and watch TV"

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a bit angry or jealous sometimes.

You shouldn't throw your rage at the people around you or let your actions be driven by anger alone. But there are a lot of things one can very justly be angry about. I would even argue that some things one should feel angry about. Like when someone is mistreated.

Denying yourself negative emotions is not entirely healthy in my opinion, it's more about the way you act on them (or don't act on them).

I'm not a therapist or any variety of professional on the topic. I will tell you it sounds unhelpful to remove emotions. I know there are similar practices in things like Stoicism. But many people take those practices to extremes. You don't sound like you're doing anything like 100% extreme about emotional suppression but you are probably overdoing it like 80% extreme. If that makes sense.

Emotions are useful. They're informational reactions to the world around us. I'm an extremely emotional person (big happies, big mads, big sads, etc) and sometimes letting that loose is a huge problem. I can make myself physically sick if I don't regulate my emotions and reactions. But I learned and practiced how to feel my emotions and then let them pass, rather than trying to stomp them out entirely. Which never really works. Suppression just pushes the problems to your future self. It's not a relief or release.

So I guess I'm trying to say, you're not at all wrong for what you're trying to accomplish. But I think you're probably not going to succeed or improve (in the way that you want) going about it the way you have been. I'd recommend finding counselors who understand how to teach effective emotional regulation techniques, or practice meditation.

I'm in your seat.

I understand that all these platitudes about how a person should behave are good things, so I try to do them. I try to be a good person in all these ways and try to not be an asshole is all those.

And here I am as an unhappy mid-thirties autistic fuck with unfilled needs. I don't understand how to weigh my own needs against all these platitudes, if I need it but it's bad to seek it in any of the ways available to me, then I won't get it. Simple.

Whereas other people have some magical spectrum they measure things on that tell them when it's okay to break any of the rules they believe in because "this was right for me".

Edit: Excuse me, I'm really grumpy today

I believe I try to live my life in a very similar way. I believe there are a lot of us who try to do this. But I do not believe everyone does that. There are many people who are malicious and they know they are. Also I feel the same about pride and praise. In the past I was pointed out I hold myself in too high regard which can result in me beeing patronizing. And I try to work on that since then. Because I feel this is not right and I do want to strive for right.

Especially you wrote in comments something like: You try to do your best considering your environment, your own limitations and even your own weakneses.

So given that, I believe you are making one mistake. I would like to expand on your limitations part.

If you feel this behavior makes you forget your needs this in not "the best you could do". This is the same as you forgetting to sleep.

If you are forgetting about yourself like rest, having fun, eat properly, maintaining your mental health. This is not your best or "perfect behaviour" in long term. Because of ignoring your own needs you will not be able to do your best tomorrow or in 10 years or will live few years less to do good or you will not have friends or be part of a community to achieve even better things together. Something like that.

Also another thought popped in my mind I do not have an answer for and I would like to see your perspective on that. I try to avoid as little responsibility as I can. And I see myself as one who is trying to do his best. But. But when I look on myself objectively I live quite a normal life: I have a job and a family and some hobbies. I try to be there for my friends and family. So asking myself. How is this the best I can do? I am not volunteering or anything like that? So is this "feeling" I am trying my best just a cover for comfort, so I do not have to do some real sacrifices for community?

What's the feeling you get when do well with this moral project?
What do you think you'll feel like when you reach your goal? If don't think the goal is attainable, what value does its pursuit bring?

That's a white puritan definition of perfection, and perfection itself is a white supremacist Christian concept. You may think you're an atheist but you have a lot of Christendom to shed.

Emotions are super potent. You will not be whole until you feel all of them and work with them on a regular basis. Eliminating anger from your life is a totalitarian strategy based on a Christian ideology that is fundamentally anti-human. Anger is amazing.

Yes, the standards you are holding for yourself are absolutely toxic and you will suffer from them long-term.

It sounds like scrupulosity OCD.

Maybe get an autism screening. Autistic people tend to have a very strong moral compass while neurotypicals dont as much.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31489833/

Sounds like stoicism.

Edit: stoicism thread already started in this post here by cuddly