this post was submitted on 10 Sep 2024
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[Dormant] Electric Vehicles

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EV sales continue to rise, but the last year of headlines falsely stating otherwise would leave you thinking they haven’t. After about full year of these lies, it would be nice for journalists to stop pushing this false narrative that they could find the truth behind by simply looking up a single number for once.

Here’s what’s actually happening: Over the course of the last year or so, sales of battery electric vehicles, while continuing to grow, have posted lower year-over-year percentage growth rates than they had in previous years.

This alone is not particularly remarkable – it is inevitable that any growing product or category will show slower percentage growth rates as sales rise, particularly one that has been growing at such a fast rate for so long.

In some recent years, we’ve even seen year-over-year doublings in EV market share (though one of those was 2020->2021, which was anomalous). To expect improvement at that level perpetually would be close to impossible – after 3 years of doubling market share from 2023’s 18% number, EVs would account for more than 100% of the global automotive market, which cannot happen.

Instead of the perpetual 50% CAGR that had been optimistically expected, we are seeing growth rates this year of ~10% in advanced economies, and higher in economies with lower EV penetration (+40% in “rest of world” beyond US/EU/China). Notably, this ~10% growth rate is higher than the above Norway example, which nobody would consider a “slump” at 94% market share.

It’s also clear that EV sales growth rates are being held back in the short term by Tesla, which has heretofore been the global leader in EV sales. Tesla actually has seen a year-over-year reduction in sales in recent quarters – likely at least partially due to chaotic leadership at the wayward EV leader – as buyers have been drawn to other brands, while most of which have seen significant increases in EV sales.

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[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 79 points 2 months ago (6 children)

Got a PHEV for our family recently, wanted to go full EV but our region just doesn't have enough charging stations available yet.

While going over the paperwork for the financing, the paperwork guy was talking about how the car company keeps pushing them to order EVs for their lot but they keep refusing. They don't want to sell EVs because they think people don't want them, because they think it just "won't ever work" - so now I think that there may be other car dealers like that who are holding back what options consumers may have in there area. I had to drive 100 miles to buy the PHEV I wanted, none nearby.

[–] lemmylommy@lemmy.world 54 points 2 months ago (30 children)

Until they make electric vehicles that need as much maintenance and repairs as ICEs car dealers will of course oppose them.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

We got a Toyota bz4x (we got a very good deal on it, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you also get a good deal), and the official maintenance schedule is ridiculous and clearly unnecessary. Every 5k miles, you're intended to take it to the dealer to make sure the coolant is topped off, the wheel nuts are on tight, and the floor mats are in place. That's about it. And it'll pop up a "Maintenance Required" warning on the dash to tell you, and it stays there until you get it done.

[–] gnuplusmatt@reddthat.com 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Every 5k miles, you’re intended to take it to the dealer to make sure the coolant is topped off, the wheel nuts are on tight

I have 2 EVs (A Hyundai Kona and a BYD Seal), both don't check the battery coolant until 60,000 kilometers - either toyota doesn't trust their battery system or your dealer is taking you for a ride

[–] frezik@midwest.social 4 points 2 months ago

It's official from Toyota's maintenance schedule. They're pretty obviously dumbing up things for dealerships, yes.

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[–] fpslem@lemmy.world 27 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That's a good insight, car dealers are a huge part of the market, and they exert a lot of pressure against change. They also fund and support a lot of local Republican candidates, historically, a fact not entirely unrelated.

[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 22 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Car dealers are very much part of the problem. They're very reluctant to let go of their comfy little racket.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Someone should tell them they may get more business from EVs. Sure, EVs need less maintenance: which affects all the commodity items you could go anywhere for. However Tesla is vertically integrated and I believe all manufacturers are more so than with ICE. Without commodity parts, there is a higher percentage of service calls that can only be done at a dealer.

[–] fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Someone should tell them they may get more business from EVs.

Outside of the pandemic, car dealers generally don't make much money on new cars. Used cars and service is the money maker.

Looking at about 57k new cars in our system the average profit based on cost - price is -1,300. And that's not factoring in other costs like paying the sales people their commission.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Again, maybe Teslas are different, but mine has almost no commodity part that a generic service center is likely to have. While I hope it will require less maintenance, essentially all of it is likely at the dealer.

I believe independent garages will be the biggest loser of reduced service frequency, not dealers

Independent garages will have to adapt. Battery swaps/rebuilds will become more and more of a thing. Same with repairing all of the computers in these vehicles. Basically all EVs for sale are iPhones on wheels, and that tech does not age gracefully. (just look at the early Model S)

Currently shops of typically filled with "boomer" techs who just blindly hate technology and won't touch it. But its adapt or die. And battery swaps on non Tesla EVs are typically really easy to do. Tesla being Tesla purposefully makes it difficult to do.

[–] bluGill@fedia.io 3 points 2 months ago

Tesla is still a rare niche. If they were more common (and had more in common with other cars) the third parties would start marking parts for things like shocks and brakes that wear out. You have to take BMWs to dealers most of the time as well as it is hard to find replacement parts elsewhere.

The big auto makers have enough volume that anything they do will get third parties making parts for service. The part may not start out as a commodity but it will become one if it needs replacement often. Thought many parts are not made in house and the company that makes them often sells at a slight loss to the OEM because replacement parts will be so profitable (an accounting loss - they invest so much in jigs and automation that sales just to the OEM won't pay for them, if you ignore those setup costs they still make money)

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Got a PHEV for our family recently, wanted to go full EV but our region just doesn’t have enough charging stations available yet.

I've been a very happy Chevy Volt customer for this reason. 90% of the time, I get around on my 50 mile charge just fine. But if I'm going on a road trip, I get another 400 miles out of my 7 gallon tank.

Shame Chevy gave up on the Volt as soon as the hybrid credits ran out. It seems like the industry is just chasing government subsidies, whether they're turning out Bush Era Hummers or Obama Era Priuses.

[–] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 5 points 2 months ago

The Prius came out in 98/99 before Bush was even president (not to mention Obama).

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Not just dealers. My brother is an engineer at a legacy car manufacturer and keeps giving me reasons why EVs will never work. If engineering doesn’t want to build EVs because it’ll never work, how will there be a compelling product to sell?

I just did a 1,200 mile road trip in my EV that did seem to affect his attitude though

[–] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 13 points 2 months ago

I work with a ton of engineers and their profession/title doesn't mean they're immune from being behind the times, misinformed, or just plain wrong about stuff they work with.

[–] bluGill@fedia.io 3 points 2 months ago

Engineers are other car manufactures have made them work. His management is already taking notice and is trying to figure out how to respond.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago

part of me wonders if they think they can just 'wait this whole Eeee-veee thing out'.

fucking idiots

[–] ganksy@lemmy.world 54 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Thank you this royally pisses me off whenever I hear it from Ford or Chevy. They could be selling like hotcakes but they much rather go back to their cash cows and the oil industry to milk.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They could be selling like hotcakes but they much rather go back to their cash cows and the oil industry to milk.

Have we seen that Ford and Chevy are able to manufacture EVs at a profit? Chevy Bolt reportdely lost $9k per vehicle sold. Ford has reported they've lost as much as $40k per vehicle sold on Mach e.

It is absolutely possible to create profitable EVs, but so far Ford and Chevy don't seem to be able to.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It’s not that they can’t manufacture for a price that can be profitable, it’s that they haven’t yet sold enough to make back their development costs. Most of that “loss” is simply not scaling enough. Every car model has a huge upfront cost of development and manufacturing costs that need to be made back. However if you allocate that over a small number of vehicles, of course it will never happen. They b need to get serious about selling them

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It’s not that they can’t manufacture for a price that can be profitable, it’s that they haven’t yet sold enough to make back their development costs.

Thats one possibility, but not the only one. Its possible that the design of the vehicles are too labor intensive so irrespective of scale they will always be unprofitable. We have good indications this may exist for Mach E. It was designed and built very quickly as a "skunkworks" style product to respond to Model Y market dominance (and giant profit margins). Ford used almost exclusively off-the-shelf parts to get it out the door quickly. The consequence to this is lots and lots of labor to use parts designed for another application in a different one. Its all doable and it works to build a product, but potentially at the cost of profitability. At product launch the Mach E was an MSRP of $54,700. Today that same vehicle MSRP is $43,995. Thats a huge amount of margin to give back that would eat up many small production improvements since launch.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ford was certainly one of the companies claiming they can out-mass-produce Tesla, that they already knew how to build cars at scale with a profit and quality. Was that all FUD?

That makes sense but assumes you stop there. Why would you? They have a vehicle they can sell and it’s been out four years: they need to be well on the way to redesigning it and its factory, rather than pushing back on selling it

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[–] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

When was the last time Ford or Chevy had a car that sold like hotcakes, EV or otherwise? Ford hasn't even made a car in several years and focuses solely on SUVs/CUVs and trucks. Their only bread and butter is their passenger trucks, which aren't even being threatened by EVs.

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[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 32 points 2 months ago

To expect improvement at that level perpetually would be close to impossible

Capitalists and cancer cells disagree

[–] shoulderoforion@fedia.io 21 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Hard to get excited about Electric Vehicles when the major players are Elon fucking Musk and China, contributing to humanity crushing fascism either way, blech. I care where my support and my money goes.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 20 points 2 months ago

How about Hyundai? They have some excellent EVs for a good price.

[–] Geth@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 months ago

The Koreans and the French of all people have some good options it seems.

[–] AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

People suggested some other foreign manufacturers that were not China, but if you wanted something made in the US, Rivian is an option, albeit an expensive one.

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[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 18 points 2 months ago

In a system which demands eternal growth slowing growth is called a slump.

[–] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

I paid a visit to Ford's Henry Ford Museum and did the factory tour. It's an absolutely great museum full of industrial progress throughout the ages, however it does mostly center on the American side of things. Highly recommend a visit, it will take you all day to see everything. Anyway, the factory tour is definitely Ford Propaganda, especially for the F150, and they do discuss the EV market which is massively smaller than the ICE truck market, however every single EV truck is sold before it leaves the factory. There's no inventory sitting around. I imagine that's partly due to production line issues like materials availability, but nonetheless the demand is there for EV, even trucks.

[–] spacesatan@lazysoci.al 10 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Imagine what they'd be without Biden's 100% tariff on affordable Chinese EVs.

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[–] joostjakob@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Are you just talking about the US? In the EU, the sale of fully electric cars has actually gone down (as a % of market share), mostly to the gain of hybrids. See for example https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0829/1467243-european-car-sales/

[–] Ton@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago

Petrol and diesel cars have dropped more. The main problem is Germany where they’ve dropped the subsidies from one day to the next late last year and have since been discussing bringing them back. Like that is going to stimulate sales…

[–] Seraph@fedia.io 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I just assumed people are buying less Teslas, as everyone seems to have finally noticed what a POS they are.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago (6 children)

And yet they’re still in many ways the best EVs available.

I think people are buying fewer Teslas because

  • the CEO can’t stop being an ass
  • too many buy for styling, but they focus more on functional changes. Each model has continuous improvement yet doesn’t change appearance
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[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago

But GM gave us 100,000!

[–] eleitl@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

They definitely are way down, in Germany.

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