It's wild how quickly reddit went from being beloved despite some missteps to an absolute pariah on the internet.
this post was submitted on 19 Jun 2023
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all it takes is one jamoke to turn the whole onion patch sour(er)
I think Reddit's CEO is making a fool out of himself by how he's managing this situation. I think however that the solution is very simple and straightforward.
Let's start: I can understand that Reddit has costs to operate the platform. I also get that they don't want big companies to abuse the API to train ML models and profit of it. Fair game!
But why not offer a generous free tier for regular users? Say, every user gets 500 free API calls per day. Regular users stay within the free tier, while big companies can't do anything meaningful with only 500 calls per day (so they end up paying money).
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Everyone happy! Many other companies offer generous free-tiers for exactly this reason. Am I missing something?
I still believe that the ML companies "argument" is just a giant smokescreen. Reason is simple: ML companies can, and probably always have, just scrape the website. Why build an integration for every API under the sun if you can just build a web crawler once and be done? There are even existing, free implementations available so that's an absolute no-brainer.
It's about killing independent clients, nothing else.
Actually when I think about it you are absolutely right. The ML argument is complete bullshit. I mean to train a ML algorithm an API is nice but scraping should do just as fine. I don't know how complicated the Reddit API is but you essentially need just GET so I guess not that much. How much time would a development team need to switch the implementation from API to scrape? A week? We're in corporate world so let's say a month with all the corporate bs around. That's still nothing
Maybe he's so incompetent that he honestly doesn't know that machine learning companies don't need api access to do what they do
My impression is they're being disingenuous, for the reasons you say. They could easily support 3rd party apps but ban large-scale data mining. Saying "supporting these apps costs us money, so we need to charge" is a manipulative half-truth. Like Selig said, they've priced it not just at covering their costs but making a healthy profit.
They priced it to destroy third party apps. There is no other reason for doing it the way they did:
- very expensive, suspiciously like Twitter, with no basis in real cost or a revenue model based on 3d party clients.
- a very short timeline so app developers have no time to implement the change
- claiming that 3d party apps were never the intended use of the api, which is a blatant lie.
Reddit could let users access the API like this easily. They could stream ads along with the comments coming from the API. They could let individual users pay a subscription fee for their own api access. They could develop an advertising platform for 3P apps to show reddit ads.
They could even have said: look, we're going to kill off 3P apps because we have another idea now, thanks but you are no longer required. At least that would have been a genuine approach.
Spez evidently has an idea about what he really wants and isn't sharing it yet. I'm sure it will be clear after the IPO.
They looked at the numbers, concluded that 3d party apps were a fringe phenomenon that could threaten their control over the platform, and just killed them.
There are many possible revenue models that include 3d party apps and a more open API, Reddit just isn't interested. They see Twitter as a shining example for some reason.
Am I missing something?
Yeah. They want to kill the third party apps so everyone has to use the ad-supported Reddit app.
It's not clear why they don't just serve ads in the API and require them to be displayed, or implement profit-sharing with 3rd party devs (as in, they pay reddit a portion of their income from ads/subscriptions). The only clear reasons would be for control and to pump up numbers for the IPO.
They're likely more interested in control than revenue.
.
There are lots of mistakes Reddit made that shows they aren't trying.
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They could have given more advance notice for the API price increase. This would give apps more time to update their code to use fewer API calls. Many apps are subscription-based, so it would give them more time to update their subscription price.
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The price should have been based on Reddit's actual costs, actual revenue, and actual profits. I.e., if it costs Reddit $0.10 per user per year and their revenue per user is $0.15 per user per year from ads, then the API price should have been $0.15-$0.25 per user per year. The actual pricing shows they made it artificially high to kill the 3rd party apps. (I don't know what the actual numbers are.)
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Even if Reddit really did want to charge $5 per month for API users, the right way to do it is to start from a lower price and increase it 20%-50% per year until they get to their target price.
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If a user had Reddit premium, they should have been given extra API call tokens they can give to their 3rd party app.
Honestly they could've just make third party apps only available to premium users.
I believe I read $0.24 per ~~500~~ 1000 API calls somewhere, which is insanely high.
$12 per 50,000,000 calls is the figure Selig mentions.
Oops, I left out the letter 'k'.
I think a smol problem here is that Apollo offered a "Lifetime Subscription" for a flat amount. In order to honor that Christian would be obliged to take money from elsewhere to cover those subscriptions, potentially for decades.
I'm a lifetime subscription holder and I would have, without a doubt, been fine with having my flat amount cover a few months of the new model, then switching over to the per month amount needed to keep Apollo running. But that wasn't even offered!
He just decided that he'd had enough and pulled the plug.
I don't blame him, he'd have to start over on his project he's worked on for years. I wouldn't want to do it either lol
No, he wouldn't. He'd have to start passing on the cost of the new API pricing + his fair share as dev, to the users of Apollo. Nothing about how the app currently functions would have to change, just the amount users pay to use the app under the new pricing.
He never even offered that as an option. (Not that I've seen or been told by him as a subscriber.) He apparently decided that doing so wasn't worth it and pulled the plug. And to be clear, as the app developer that's fully his right and I support his decision.
I'm old enough to know that sometimes in life you've just "had it," and it's time to walk away.
I feel for him too.
I think one of the big issues for him was monetary liability. Even if he did pass the API costs on to willing users, he still wasn’t going to be making much -if any- more money.
It’s kinda like somebody offering you $1 to get a $20 bill across the street safely - vs - someone offering you $1 to get $20,000 across the street safely.
If something went wrong with the $20, then no big deal. But if something went wrong with the $20,000, then oh shit. A dollar isn’t worth that headache.
Same thing with Apollo going completely sub based at $5 or $10 a month. If something was slightly off about his accounting or API call guesstimates or anything else, he could easily be on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars that the subscription fees didn’t cover that month or quarter or year.
I would’t be able to sleep like that.
Very valid point. Thank you!
Poor Christian, going through all that shit just because spez is jealous about him having a better product.
Imagine if instead of all of this he worked with Christian to understand why his product is better.
That would take humility and a functioning brain.
So wholesome to see that reaching on top of r/all
I'm really going to miss Sync...
For real man, I used Boost then Sync, both are great Reddit apps and I hope the devs get here eventually.
The Reddit app sucks balls hence I'm not going to use it ever.
I really don't understand how a company like Reddit can deliver such a stuttery mess of an app. Forget about the ads, sure I get that, but the level if quality of the third-party offerings is so much better.
These tech CEO's are dumb as fuck as proven by Elon - dumb leadership leads to dumb decisions which leads to poor execution. Source: work for a company with dumb fuck leadership.
When it comes to the quality of a product, developer passion beats just being paid for it every time.
Talk your shit Christian
i wish i could give christian my support but i've completely nuked all my accounts on Reddit and don't even go there if I can help it. poor guy - what the heck did he do to deserve this turn of events?
from the original post
Not to turn this into an infomercial, but that is a lot of money, and if you appreciate my work I also have a fun separate virtual pets app called Pixel Pals that it would mean a lot to me if you checked out and supported (I’ve got a cool update coming out this week!). If you’re looking for a more direct route, Apollo also has a tip jar at the top of Settings, and if that’s inaccessible, I also have a tipjar@apolloapp.io PayPal. Please only support/tip if you easily have the means, ultimately I’ll be fine.
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