this post was submitted on 19 May 2024
350 points (88.9% liked)

Ask Lemmy

26778 readers
2616 users here now

A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions

Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world


Rules: (interactive)


1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them


2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?


3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.


4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com. NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].


5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.


Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.

Partnered Communities:

Tech Support

No Stupid Questions

You Should Know

Reddit

Jokes

Ask Ouija


Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 22 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Tldr non partisan answer: Libertarian philosophy favors negative rights over positive rights.

Negative rights oblige others to not impede (like not censoring free speech).

Positive rights oblige others to provide something (like healthcare).

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Imo, it would be better worded as follows:

  • Negative liberty: freedom from something.
  • Positive liberty: freedom to do something.
[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That's probably the more popular way, but I think it's easier to misinterpret. For example the freedom of speech, one could think of it as the freedom to speak instead of the freedom from undue censorship. But that right is usually considered a negative one.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

For example the freedom of speech, one could think of it as the freedom to speak instead of the freedom from undue censorship.

As I currently understand it, freedom of speech is regarded as a negative liberty because it is purely focused on freedom from the government imposing restrictions on what you can and can't say. It's not, however, the government giving you the freedom to say whatever you want, whenever you want, under any circumstance — e.g. people are free to trespass you from their establishment if they don't like what you are saying.

[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I agree that it's a negative liberty. It's just the from/to language can be misconstrued IMO, the not impede/oblige others framing is more clear without additional information. It's, again IMO, targeting the core of the differential. Asking of others for inaction vs asking for action.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

IIUC, I just think that the intent/mentality is somewhat altered in what you described in this comment. For example, you said "Positive rights oblige others to provide something (like healthcare)." — positive liberty isn't necessarily about forcing people, in an authoritative manner, to do things for, or to, another person. It's essentially taking the position that people should have the freedom to experience life on a level playing field, if you will — it is interested in lowering the amount of barriers preventing people from doing what they want. I don't think your wording is necessarily incorrect, I'm just not convinced that the connotation is the same.

[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

I think this cleared up our disconnect. I chose oblige to indicate that they require others to do something for them to occur. Most often paying taxes, to pay the provider of a service. This typically isn't a 'at gunpoint' interaction. But negative rights will never require another to do something for it to be practiced.

I agree with your highlighting of the philosophy behind them. I was more concerned about a short rememberable way to differentiate the two.

So I chose oblige vs force to make sure it had the connotation of a civil concession.