this post was submitted on 18 May 2024
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[–] Miaou@jlai.lu 31 points 6 months ago (4 children)

I get and agree with the spirit but "western liberals" doesn't mean anything

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 22 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I hear Americans use the term liberal all the time but the way they use it makes me think we're talkibg about different things

[–] ADTJ 5 points 6 months ago

It is very confusing. There's socially liberal, which is what Americans are usually referring to which is generally progressive, more freedoms for people etc.

The other liberal is Liberalism which is largely about being in favour of private property, private companies etc. and a free market, which tends to (but not always) correlate with being socially conservative.

Here in the UK, one of the big parties is the Liberal Democrats, which is a pro-Liberalism centre-right wing party, but because of the name a lot of people confuse them for progressives.

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 6 months ago

A liberal is someone who:

  1. Upholds the modern nation state and is thus against monarchy (against whom the first liberals rebelled against)
  2. Upholds capitalism and market economies, and with it property rights
  3. Upholds electoral parliamentary systems of governance
  4. Usually believes in some version of the social contract or similar theory from which the legitimacy of the nation state and capitalism is derived.

Anyone from the left complaining about liberals is using this definition of liberals (typically). The basic reasoning for using this definition if liberal is that it has always been the definition of liberal and has only changed recently in some parts of the world. It is also not necessary to change the definition because the "progressive liberals" also mostly fit the old definition either way. Pretty much every serious socialist political theory will start with a criticism of the philosophy of liberalism.

[–] cyclohexane@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It does. Literally the president of the United States as a prime example.

[–] Miaou@jlai.lu 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

See, based on what you mean by liberal, I don't know whether that means "the current potus is a dem" or "of course because everyone is a liberal there"

[–] cyclohexane@lemmy.ml 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

everyone is a liberal there

Do you mean everyone in the US is a liberal? No I don't believe that nor did I imply it. I only mentioned the president.

[–] AppleTea@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago

From further up the thread

A liberal is someone who:

  • Upholds the modern nation state and is thus against monarchy (against whom the first liberals rebelled against)
  • Upholds capitalism and market economies, and with it property rights
  • Upholds electoral parliamentary systems of governance
  • Usually believes in some version of the social contract or similar theory from which the legitimacy of the nation state and capitalism is derived.

This describes the bulk of the Democrat and Republican parties. US politics doesn't have a left-wing as it is understood in the rest of the world, our center is between two right-wing ideologies.

[–] daellat@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The conflict in terms comes from what in Europe mostly describes the social axes. Social liberalism is very different from what in America usually refers to economically neo-liberals who are basically late stage capitalists