Just putting this up to contrast with this post and because Eli Valley is a great political cartoonist.
this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
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Pretty fucking depressing that the anti fascism vote is also the keep supporting genocide vote. It's a trolley problem but one track only has foreigners tied to it so we're supposed to cheer for that option I guess
One track has Palestinians tied to it, the other track has more Palestinians tied to it, Ukrainians and probably others tied to it, AND American minorities by the bushel.
If you're looking for a point in history when there wasn't someone getting hit by the trolley, you'll be looking a while. We have to find the choice that is most achievable and least damaging.
Yeah wooooo go Biden so proud 🤣 vote democrat, we will probably be responsible for less death and suffering. New slogan right there. "SLIGHTLY! LESS! DEATH!"
It's a complicated situation though golly who knows how to fix this problem
The smart people know that. Only problem is that not all of the people are smart and they all have the same voting power
That's the slogan for every positive action throughout human history. We don't have the luxury of choices which hurt no one on the societal scale.
I'm not saying it's a bad decision given the situation. I'm saying the situation is dog shit and perhaps will come back to bite us in the ass when "slightly less death!" isn't the biggest motivation to get out and vote.
I would be more sympathetic to your point if Biden couldn't stop supporting this immediately with relative ease. Most voters are against what Israel is doing and especially democrats. It's not like it would hurt his election chances. It's not like the protests this has inspired are a good look anyway.
That's literally not true though.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/548084/americans-divided-involvement-middle-east.aspx
Americans Divided Over U.S. Support for Israel and the Palestinians Do you think the United States supports [Israel/the Palestinians] too much, about the right amount or too little? % Too much% Right amount% Too little% No opinion U.S. support for Israel U.S. adults 36 38 24 Republicans 26 37 37 Independents 40 36 22 Democrats 40 43 15
Most Americans, including most Democrats, think that the current level of support for Israel is either correct or too little.
More recent poll:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
Overall 55% disapprove of Israel's actions and only 36% approve, plus
And
Approval of Israel's military action is separate from approval for the current US support for Israel, as the numbers compared from November and March (from Gallup, in your poll) show (compared to the numbers, also from Gallup, in the poll I cited). 63% of Democrats in November disapproved of Israel's military action, yet, in December, 58% of Democrats still believed that US support for Israel was either appropriate or not enough. Again, both of those numbers, from the poll you cited and the one I did, are both from Gallup.
Man, if your argument is that people are fucking insane and don't pay enough attention to matters of civic importance, I'm onboard. But if your argument is that this is an easy win for Biden that he's just not taking, I don't think the evidence backs that up, as much as I wish it did.
I would stress that my original point about this polling was
Which is true, as per the most recent poll.
But yeah good point. People are fucking stupid.
I think opinion has clearly shifted, as shown by the declining support for Israel's military action. Even the poll I cited is now months old. So it's likely less support funding them now. But yeah we don't know that so kind of a moot point.
But what is true is that people don't like Biden's handling of this issue (shown by polling), that people don't like what Israel is doing (polling) and that supporting genocide is bad (hopefully common sense).
So I don't know. Maybe condition aid on not committing fucking war crimes? I think in any case it's clear voters are not happy about Israel's actions and Biden's support for it obviously makes it more difficult for people to support him. If we insist in sticking with the polling and not necessarily morals, he should at least be clear in his condemnation of what they are doing.
I mean, I absolutely am in favor of Biden cutting off aid, at least conditionally (though honestly I'd be ecstatic if it was unconditional and permanent, fuck Israel). If it's a lose-lose situation, one should go with the more moral loss. I just also recognize that it's not a cut-and-dry strategic decision.
I hope that if the anti-Israel momentum continues, the pressure will cause Biden to shift - and considering his current responsiveness and his history of swaying with popular Dem opinion, I have hopes that he will if hostility towards Israel continues to increase in the Dem party.
Honestly, I didn't think we'd even make it this far. When Israel's disproportionate response to Oct 7th happened, I was well and truly prepared for the US electorate to shrug their shoulders and continue supporting Israel at the same rate like every other time this has happened in my lifetime. So maybe I'm more cynical than I should be on the matter.
It's complicated for sure. I never thought it would get this far either.
Agreed! I think conditionally cutting is best, make it clear you don't support war crimes and genocide while still having cover - "the funding is available, we just insist that international law is followed."
Lmao… how did you infer that out of referencing Gallup poll results? Genuinely curious…
"It's the way we've always done it" isn't a justification for continuing.
Feel free to get back to me when you develop your magic "Everyone wins and no one is hurt" formula for actions on a societal scale.
It doesn't have to be "everyone wins and no one gets hurt" in order to be better than supporting genocide.
You're seriously casting "stop supporting genocide" as a pipe dream for people with unrealistic expectations.
Congratulations. You've 'stopped supporting genocide' by witholding your vote for mean ol' Biden. That'll show him!
The trolley now goes down the Trump rail, and crushes even more Palestinians, in addition to Ukrainians, American minorities, and god knows who else.
Yeah, gonna go ahead and say that "CORNEL WEST COMES OUT OF THE DRESSING ROOM WITH A STEEL CHAIR!" or whatever the red herring candidate du jour is is a fucking pipe dream.
I'm still voting for Biden, just like I was last time you made this baseless accusation.
So your argument, then, is that you will be withholding your "support for genocide", by doing exactly what everyone who is "supporting genocide" is doing.
Wonderful. Glad we could clear that up.
My argument is that Biden should lose your vote by ceasing his support for genocide.
lmao
"People are going to die either way, so I might as well enable the worse choice!" - Voter in Weimar Germany
Nice work, good job on murdering as many minorities as you can because... people are going to die anyway, so it may as well be as many as possible?
And fascist simps like you wonder why you're disdained by so many.
Killing as many minorities as possible and ushering in fascism is the best long-term effect in your mind?
Yeah, that tracks. You keep simping for fascism, bud.
"And punish the party" by... giving power to fascists?
You... you think that the electoral victory of the far-right will push the overton window... left?
Are you dumb, or just pretending to be?
Congrats, we'll be in line in the concentration camps together. I'm sure you'll be loudly crying out "AT LEAST I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE DEMONRATS" as the showers turn on for us.
When the Democratic party’s strategists have decided that “you definitely don’t want the other guy voted in” in place of literally any other strategy is their best option, please explain to me why anyone further left of your centrism should believe that the administration will take another vote cast for them as anything but approval of the job they’ve done so far and an endorsement of more of the same.
On the flip side, to hold Biden himself accountable for the overreaction from University boards’ decisions on behalf of their corporate masters (donors, if that wasn’t clear), or responsible for the large number of Representatives and Senators making and voting for policy with their heads up their own or others’ asses, when he has been caught on the hot mic disparaging Netanyahu for how Israel is conducting itself is holding the wrong person accountable.
I get where they’re coming from. I get it on a level you clearly don’t because you have proven time and again that you have little capacity to sympathize with those who are clearly tired of voting for the “least damaging option”. Take a break and let someone else debate with them, because the more you criticize the further you’ll solidify their position.
Okay, dad?
Because the administration is full of politicians who have continually shifted with popular opinion. You wanna explain to me how a far-right fascist winning an election is going to convince the centrists in the Democratic Party that sentiment has shifted left and not right?
Gee, I wonder why I don't have much sympathy for those who are "tired" of voting for the "least damaging option". Guess I'll mull that over in line to the fucking concentration camps.
Get your privileged bullshit out of here, and go play apologist for fascism enablers somewhere where they give a damn about your overwhelming desire to see oppressed groups murdered so you can feel warm and fuzzy about how politically pure fascism apologists are when they stamp their feet and cry both sides are the same. Me? I'm more interested in not getting murdered and not seeing any of my family or friends murdered by a fascist regime which has no intention of letting another democratic election happen as long as it exists.
I'm not your dad, son.
Oh, okay. You just want to be mad without fixing the situation.
Well, you can kindly go fuck yourself.