1042
A reminder to all you far left and far right nutjobs that think Joe Biden has done nothing significant in office
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2024
1042 points (83.2% liked)
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If these are the only two options in our current system
1.) god help us
2.) let's tear down the system
Unless class conciousness forms in America tearing the system down would result in a mad max hell scape and probably the end of of the human race because of the acceleration to climate change.
If anything climate change would decelerate from the collapse of the system though. I mean, you saw that air quality, pollution indexes, etc have all improved during the lockdowns right? There's a reason pollution is used to measure how the economy is doing in countries that aren't honest about it (where usually less emissions = worse economy)
They don't care. The Great Satan would be dead. That's all that matters to them.
Don't need to throw out the whole system. Even just ranked choice voting and getting rid of the electoral college would massively improve the quality of our representation.
It's the only two options in the system because the American people are not as left-wing as your average fucking Lemmy user.
Even as someone far more right than the average lemmy user, an 80 year old and an almost 80 year old being the only two options is absurd.
You don't have to like it. It's the reality right now though.
Absurd, yes, but an absurdity that is endorsed, unfortunately, by the voters.
Not really.
Yes, really. Fuck's sake. What, you think Trump is using his entire net worth of negative 500 million to bribe a massive group of actors sworn to secrecy and change all the GOP primary outcomes in his favor?
No. I wasn't even referring to primaries.
But it's not a system propped up by the voters when the system is specifically designed to favor two options and make voting a third option hard or undesirable despite said third option being better representative of your values.
I hardly doubt a majority of people would like eother Biden or Trump, they just vote the one who they don't want to lose to the other.
What third option is better representative of the majority or even a plurality of the views of the American people?
Having more than 2 parties in itself is more representative.
Believe it or not in healthy democracies no party represents more than half the population and governments are formed via coalitions, that's because people are very diverse in opinions and beliefs and you can't group them all in one or two parties.
Okay, that doesn't really address the issue of a presidential election, which generally come down to two candidates even in non-two-party systems. Who has wider support than Biden and Trump at this moment in time? Who do the voters wish they could flock to?
Ever heard of STV? Or the fact the president isn't omnipotent? Or the possibility that the president could be elected by the elected Parliament instead?
Having more than 2 parties means that even if the president is from one of the big parties it still has to rely on other parties to stay in his position and therefore more people are actually represented compared to when someone votes someone simply because they like the other options a bit less.
Also I'd take a guess and say Bernie would probably have a good shot. And in a healthy democracy you'd have more than two mere options to consider. It's a viciois cycke that of the two party system, Biden and Trump's chances at winning aren't just higher because they're liked it's moreso because you only really hear about them and they're presented like the only options available.
STVs require multi-member districts. Election of the president is of a single office (effectively).
Okay, again, none of that actually addresses the issue of presidential elections generally coming down to two people, and that Biden and Trump are pretty unambiguously the two largest players by preference of American voters?
Would... would you regard that as preferable ?
No STVs are pretty simple: I vote my preferred candidate, it doesn't win? My vote goes to my 2nd preferred candidate, and so on. Ensuring that my preferred candidate gets a shot and if he doesn't win I can still choose the one I hate less among the eventual big 2 old farts. They can apply to any amount of offices.
It does address it. The president can't do shit without a parliamentary majority so even if it comes down to 2 people they still have to coalition (and therefore give concessions) to other parties if they want to achieve anything. Therefore people are still represented.
In a functioning parliamentary (which is where the parliament holds most of the power rather than the president) multiparty system yes it absolutely is preferable as it generally leads to a president that isn't necessarily from a single party but rather someone either more technical, skilled and representative. Even in unhealthy systems like Italy for example the president is elected indirectly and, Mattarella, just so happens to be the most popular politician among the public as a result too, after all there's a reason neofascists are trying to remove him and instead give more power to a president that would be directly elected and which they know would give them more power.
Do you mean IRV?
Okay, currently, the president can't do shit without a congressional majority, and unlike in parliamentary systems, voting outside of party lines is extremely common and won't get you kicked out of the party, so what is the effective difference in representation?
I'm gonna have to disagree here. Parliamentary election of the executive leads to situations like Netanyahu in Israel. Or Berlusconi in Italy, back when that asshole was alive. It's not a more meritocratic or technocratic way to elect the executive - it's just a smaller, and thus easier to bribe, coerce, strongarm, threaten, or flatter, electorate.
No I mean Single Transferable Vote
The difference is that unlike the people voting outside party lines you actually chose and voted the 3rd party and you can generally assume it's going to vote the way you expect it to, and since you don't need the party to necessarily be as big tent as possible you can also ensure more party discipline.
Berlusconi wasn't the president, he was the prime minister and the ways the two positions are elected are different. Obviously it isn't an infallable or the best system, it's better than your current system tho. It is also important that the power is never concentrated on a single person regardless of whether it is elected directly or indirectly. The president shouldn't be the main focus of an election.
God help us
Yeah. God help us. But tearing down the system, while temporarily satisfying as millions die, will not be the solution we want it to be. What emerges will have the exact same problem as long as it is democratic and the American electorate is not changed.
Burn down the MIC
There is no other way