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Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents
(cleantechnica.com)
this post was submitted on 01 Jan 2024
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This article doesn't really touch on the biggest issue of getting into an EV - the price tag. I mean, $26k to get into an entry-level model? I paid $11k for my SUV, and the only reason I could afford that was due to a pay-out from the company that totaled my previous vehicle. Show me a used EV with towing and storage capacity more in the range of $6k that I can expect to drive for twenty years with basic maintenance and you might get me interested.
Beyond that, they claim that an EV is cheaper to maintain over the years? OK I've been driving my used SUV for 15 years now and I've spent less than a grand on replacing parts (not including stuff like tires that are going to be replaced on any vehicle). My previous vehicle was driven for 24 years and cost even less to maintain because it didn't have 4WD. It looks like within these time periods I would have expected to replace EV batteries several times (most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years), and how much would that have cost? I understand that most people can't be bothered to learn how to perform even the most basic maintenance tasks and believe that you need to buy a new car every 5 years, but I would like to see realistic maintenance estimates for those of us who don't treat our vehicles like a piece of disposable tupperware.
You got your current car for 11k but expext an EV to cost you 6k. Why is that? Shouldn't you expect the EV to also cost in the same range as 11k to make it a fair comparison?
In terms of battery replacement, have you calculated after how many miles the battery replacement becomes "free" because of gas savings? This changes for everyone based on their electricity prices and whether they have solar.
Because I got the current SUV from a dealership with all the attached mark-ups and fees, at a time when similar models were selling used for about half that cost. However because I had the money available I was willing to splurge on getting exactly the one I was looking for. Also, an EV is not an SUV, and certainly not 4WD with the stronger frame to support off-road use, so it shouldn't cost as much. I actually bought my wife's car, a 2006 Murano with 4WD, for $6000 from a dealership, so even that has more capability and probably more cargo space that a typical EV. My baseline is how much vehicle I can get for that price range.
[Edit] Sorry... as far as "free" is concerned, well that never really happens, does it? Yes I could get solar installed on my house, but that costs as much as the car and wouldn't likely get paid off before the car itself fell apart or was hopelessly obsolete. Since COVID I only have to drive in to the office two days a week now, so I'd be lucky if I even put 3500 miles a year on my SUV now, which is around $750/year in gas. A conservative estimate on solar installation is around $15,000 which means I would have to drive the EV and be completely powered by my own solar charger for 20 years to pay off the solar panels, and in that amount of time the solar panels themselves would likely fail from age or hail and need to be replaced (although hopefully the technology would have improved by then). Also note that because of the dense trees in my neighborhood, I'm not even confident I have enough of my roof in direct sunlight to power the house itself. Yeah it's something I've looked in to, and while I could save a lot of money by building the solar installation myself, I'm still not sure I could get enough power even if I cover every inch of roof that sees Summer sunlight for more than a couple hours. Free 'gas' just isn't going to happen unless I cut down my own trees, and convince several neighbors to also cut down theirs.
You have not considered some aspects. You have concluded that solar is only used for charging the EV and that it doesn't power your house. Realistically nobody does that. Your solar beakeven should be converted to calculate how much time it takes to save 15k from both your electricity bill + gas savings. Then the whole equation becomes,
battery replacement cost + solar cost = (annual electricity bill + fuel cost) * x number of years
Only then can you know if the breakeven period is a save or a loss.
Ignoring solar, what's the breakeven like when you charge the vehicle from grid? (With night time prices if you have such a tarrif/discount)
And to answer your last question... I can't find any info on whether the city offers discount for at-home charging, but they do provide several level 2 chargers around the city at a rate of $1/hour, which seems fairly reasonable? Hard to say as I have no idea how long an EV take to recharge or how far you can drive on a 1-hour charge so I don't have enough info to make a reasonable comparison there.
Actually solar powering my house was my first consideration. I'm already dealing with an electric company that didn't think it was odd when they turned off the power to my house and the meter kept running (my typical monthly usage is around 4000kWh which breaks down to over 5000 watts of solar panels and roughly 300 square feet of roof space that isn't blocked by trees) so I'm trying to find an electrician to replace the wires between the meter and the house. The assumption here is that the wiring has a ground leak -- the more power I pull, the faster the leak, which ramps up my bill quickly. Meanwhile I've been considering installing solar panels on my house to offset some of that usage. Even if I'm really only using half that amount of power, that's still a LOT of required solar panels and as I said there's not a lot of exposed roof space available. My calculations weren't including trying to recharge an EV because I don't have any numbers on how much power that would pull.
Basically where I'm sitting, about 2/3 of my roof is blocked from sunlight by trees on the East and South which is great for keeping the house cool, but not so great for solar panels. If I was trying to supply half of my current electrical usage I would need roughly 12 square feet of good sun throughout the day, but my Southern roof only has that much exposed for 4-6 hours in the middle of Summer. In the Winter one of the trees to the South of me will lose its leaves, but the other tree to the South and all the trees on the East side are massive evergreens that block the sun all year. I'm having a hard time getting the numbers to add up just to supply my house with power, I just don't see any way to also recharge a vehicle (let alone two). It's still a project on my radar though and something I really want to get in place since I do use quite a bit of power here.
Oh, and that $15,000 installation price was for more typical homes that use less than 250kWh/month. Obviously I am nowhere near that.
A used market is mostly a matter of time. There just hasn’t been enough EVs available for long enough to have much of a used market
The older EV models currently in the used market should be avoided. They are mostly compliance cars like the original Fiat 500e and the VW eGolf — slow charging only, small worn out batteries, and little range. Or they are first generation Leaf EVs with failing batteries that are out of warranty or cannot be replaced due to eternal back order at Nissan.
The 2017-2019 Bolts can be a good buy if they’ve already had their batteries replaced under warranty/recall. Decent range and amenities, though some find the earlier model seats uncomfortable.
This next generation of used EVs (cars shipping as new right now) will be great — longer range and faster charging.
Related…
https://electrek.co/2024/01/04/top-ten-most-popular-used-evs-2023/
Agreed, and there's a LOT of usage in my area so I would expect there to be a decent used market. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be there yet. I know in time EVs will be as cheap and common as ICE vehicles are today, but personally I feel like currently they are still only available to people with a LOT of disposable cash.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. In regards to used EVs for 6k, they’re all over the place. Just look for Nissan leafs or Priuses.
That’s until it’s at like 85-95% capacity. Ev batteries will last for decades no problem. And if you had that little maintenance on your car then you’re just not taking care of it. Oil literally would cost over a thousand dollars just by itself, so if you’re not replacing the oil you’re irreparably damaging your vehicle. (12k miles a year, replace minimum every 6k miles unless you’ve done an oil test and have a custom timeline, $30-50 each time, so $100 a year minimum on just one thing).
I’m sorry but your numbers just outright do not add up at all. You clearly either abused your car and actually didn’t maintain it, or you maintained it and have no clue the true cost.
What I do is I have an extra truck for towing, which I rarely need to use - but it's not cheap to do this, and many people can't or won't. But even then, having a "good for commuting only" vehicle is an even harder sell. I know people who do this, but that can be hard to hit IMHO. While all you need and all you miss with towing is... towing, a "good commuter car" might well be something that is small, 2WD, and doesn't really have cargo space or back seats. Many people however have young kids (need pretty large car seats), or want to take 3-4 people on trips, or want to go shopping for stuff and minimize the needed delivery fees, or have bad weather and want AWD/4WD. It's easy to get a truck or SUV that does all of that AND towing, but it's hard to get an economical EV that does all of that minus towing.
Ahhh but you have to remember: if you want anything that an EV doesn't do better than ICE, you're wrong for wanting it and should change your life until that's no longer something you want, at which point you'll see that an EV is perfect for you.
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I've read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don't have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
I've been using full synthetic in my SUV, it's good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don't remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife's car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there's a few other things I didn't add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
Maybe you are lucky with your car, and know how to maintain yourself. We spent already 3000$ on repairs on our 2010 car and we have it for only 5 years. And there is more to be done (dampers, belts, corrosion on exhaust...). Even with knowledge and equipment (which I do not have) engines are complicated to maintain, at least here in europe with our anti pollution regulations, older motors are more robust but are now banned from cities. EV is a good solution for city/suburbs people with small range needs as less maintainance is needed. Better solution is bike and trains...
My SUV is a 2004, it has stuff on it that I have no idea what the function is supposed to be. However the basics are still there, they have plugs or ignition coils, belts, a cooling system, brakes, and power steering. There are various sensors for the computer that can be hard to find but fairly easy to replace once you locate them. The worst of the problems haven not changed -- parts that are difficult or nearly impossible to get to, and parts that have rusted in place. Some things are just worth letting the professionals fight with, but other things I'll do myself to save that $200 minimum fee that the shops charge. At one point I had a shop replace one of the front axle bearing for me, that cost about $300. Then I started having other things go out and after doing some reading realized the mileage on the SUV was high enough that these parts were due to be replaced anyway... for another $300 and about 2 hours of my time (mostly figuring out how everything came apart) I replaced the other axle bearing plus both of the front axles and a couple other smaller items. If you have the patience and some tools, there are plenty of videos online now showing how to replace this stuff, just start with something small (belts and ignition coils are actually easy) and you might surprise yourself!
That’s because people are obsessed with long ranges. You don’t need long range. EVs last plenty fine, even with reduced distance. Undecided with Matt Ferrell has covered this a lot.
You’re damaging your car. You should be changing your oil at minimum every 6k miles. 20k is ridiculous. 6k is the number for full synthetic, 3-4k is for non synthetic. Project farm covers this and does a ton of tests to show you why.
$0 dollars. Windshield washer fluid is all I’ve had to touch. On our towing truck I had to replace a gas line from gas destroying the line. Gas vehicles are soooo much more expensive in every single way. There’s a ton of studies on this dude.
One of our friends we visit on a regular basis is a 90-minute drive away (a little over 100 miles each way), and we typically stay for about 4 hours before heading home. Anything outside of town is going to be at least a 45-minute drive each way and when we go into Denver we're talking over an hour. And since I live only six miles away from the mountains we tend to drive around up there quite a lot which can easily lead to a 2-3 hour drive on some pretty substantial grades. But let's just pretend for a moment that I don't care about range, and I grab the only used EV I see within my range -- a Nissan Leaf with a listed range of 84 miles. That means most mountain trips are out because Estes Park is the only place that might have a charging station. But what about visiting our friends? If I fully charge the EV at home before we leave, I'll still have to stop at least twice during the trip to fully recharge. Are we talking about the addition of a few minutes to my trip, or are we looking at adding hours to an already long drive? Range matters when you live in an area where everything is spread out.
On the other hand, my wife rarely drives her car outside of town and is never used for long trips -- so THAT is something we have discussed replacing with an EV when the time comes and the prices are more reasonable.
You DO understand that some synthetic oils are actually made to take you more than 6000 miles, right? Take a look at Amsoil, many people have tested it and sent their oil to labs for testing. This stuff stands up to real-world testing. As far as concerns about permanent damage -- well I've put 120k miles on this vehicle so far and it still purrs along without any sign of trouble. And seriously, nearly 300k on my previous V8 engine (it had 106k when I bought it and I rolled the odometer twice before selling it) and it was only just starting to blow some white smoke when I first started it up. That's with plain old Valvoline dino oil for most of its life although I did upgrade to the high-mileage synthetic blend in probably the last 100k, and only doing oil changes about every 20-25k. And that thing was a racing engine, I could do 70mph in first gear, so I never treated it lightly. Sorry you've had such bad luck, but I'll stand by what has worked for me.
So yeah, there's fewer moving parts on an EV, and fewer things that can break down. I can still drive my ICE for massively less money. Just looking at the used market in my area, anything large enough that I would even consider driving (because I won't risk my wife's life in a damn subcompact car) start at over $30k, and we won't even talk about Teslas. If you're going to make an honest comparison of maintenance costs (suspension parts wear out on every vehicle, but ICE parts are of course not directly relatable to EV engine parts) I can easily buy a used vehicle and drive it for years without even approaching half the cost of a used EV.
Even the price to gas up versus recharging is greatly debated. Sure you can get some great rates if you always charge up from home and your local power company offers off-peak subsidies, but for me even driving to work mean recharging during the day to get back home, and those charging stations have a premium price. Just checking google for research in the last couple years, the articles are pretty evenly split over which one is cheaper, but many of those were comparing the best electric prices charging at home to some of the worst gasoline prices at $4/gallon. Unless you already have a full solar installation on your house, comparing apples to apples in refueling costs doesn't seem to show any clear advantage in either direction, so it's not like driving an EV is going to "pay for itself"... at least not yet.
I'm not throwing all of this out here to try and suggest that EVs are a terrible idea and nobody should ever consider them. For most people who make short trips and drive in reasonably flat areas, I'm sure they are getting past the point of status symbol and are starting to become a great solution. But for people like me who regularly travel long distances, needs to carry construction materials or tow heavy trailers for various projects, and doesn't mind doing the occasional repair at home, an EV is still an insanely expensive prospect. I mean $30k is more than the total I have spent on all of my vehicles AND my wife's vehicles combined in nearly 40 years. Yes I'm keeping an eye on things because EVs are definitely the way we are heading and the infrastructure is getting built up pretty quickly to support them, but for my own needs they are just not there yet.
Yes they aren't cheap up front but the ROI is good.
The curse and trap of being poor - or Vimes law of boots. If you only have $5,000 to get a vehicle, doesn't matter if your ROI is bad over time, your choice is bad ROI and a vehicle, or no vehicle. I really hope used EVs start to get parity with used ICEs, but I bet that's at least a decade if not two away.
Are you comparing cost of used ICE Vs new EV?
I'd prefer to compare used to used, but looking around online at what's available in my area, the cost of most used EVs appears to start around $15,000 for these tiny compact cars that would never be useful to me. The cheapest was a Nissan Leaf for $7500 with a listed range of 84 miles -- hell we couldn't even visit many of our friends in that distance! The more reasonable sized cars (at least judging by the pictures) like a Kia Niro or maybe a Nissan Ariya which have ranges over 200 miles start around $30,000 and go up very quickly from there. So yeah, even comparing used prices puts these vehicles way outside my price range.
Just adding to that, what required maintenance can you do on an EV?
I can take care of most of the basics like fluid and brake pad changes on my IC car. On an EV tyres are a given, but is there specialised maintenance work that I can't do myself?
There’s pretty much just tires, brakes, fluids. That’s it. That’s why they’re so great. Oh and your brakes last a lot longer because most of the braking is done with regen (think electric engine braking).
To expand, the only fluid that needs replacing is the washer fluid. There is no oil needed EVs, and most don't have transmissions, they are direct drive from the motors. The oil in the motor doesn't need to be changed because it's a sealed system.
So that leaves brakes, which aren't used nearly as much due to regenerative braking like you said. And of course tires because that's just normal wear from use. And the cabin air filter every couple years.
EVs have less than half the parts of an ICE vehicle simply because most of the engine and transmission components just aren't there. There is simply less there that can break or wear out.
Battery longevity will depend largely on the battery tech and quality the manufacturer uses, and how good their Battery Management System is. Batteries wear mostly due to high use and how you manage charging. Fast charging all the time will wear them faster than charging overnight at home for instance. I keep my Model 3 battery between 60-80% charge and that's way more than I need for daily driving. When going on a trip I fully charge the night before and there are a ton of chargers on all the long distance trips I've made. It reroutes to account for busy chargers automatically and I rarely need to think about it.
Good points. One note I’ll make is tires. They can wear out faster simply because of how much torque the motor(s) give them. As with anything, if you have a lighter foot off the line then they’ll last longer. If you want that EV power to get out front at every stop then you’ll wear through them 2x as fast. Good news is that tire manufacturers are prototyping new everyday road tires made to handle higher torque for EVs.
Seems like at the very least it would require a different set of tools and knowledge. I can do pretty much everything down to completely tearing down and rebuilding an engine so replacing ball joints or suspension A-frames is easy for me, but I expect that sort of thing to be outside of most people's knowledge. Even so, there's quite a lot that anybody can do to maintain their current vehicle without needing any special knowledge they can't learn in five minutes. What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition, and how would we even know that there's a fault that needs addressed? I can't imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed, and yet on an ICE you can easily hear or feel when something isn't right with the engine.
Read the user manual that comes with your car, it explains that in great detail. There's practically no maintenance to be done, anyway
They don't really need them like ICE do. OBDII gives all the details on your battery that you could possibly want, there are cheapo sensors on the like 2 other failable parts
There's simply a lot LESS to go wrong on an EV, maintenance is very different once you get one
That's good to hear! I keep watching how things are progressing, some day we'll all make the switch but at the moment I still need the capacity of an SUV to carry construction materials and the ability to tow my 20' trailer with loads up to 6000 pounds. Somebody once told me that there's no reason to own a personal vehicle when I can just ride a bicycle or take the bus everywhere, it took me awhile to stop laughing.