this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
1112 points (88.2% liked)
Memes
45731 readers
1202 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
what the fuck do words even mean anymore, read marx jesus christ
I used to think that Marx was overrated because I never needed to read him but holy shit it's clear that 95% of the populace cannot form coherent ideologies without being taught them
Tankie usually refers to Marxism-Leninism (as well the ideologies that derived from it such as Maoism). But there are communist ideologies that don't derive from ML such as Orthodox Marxism, trotskyism, libertarian Marxism, bulshevism, etc.
no it usually refers to whatever the fuck the person posting it seems to think it is, there is not a coherent label for it.
Oh cool, which societies use those?
Why are you letting libs define everything? You and I both know they're dumbasses and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Anyone could have said the same to Marx about communism at any point in his life, as he died before the October revolution.
the difference is you named a bunch of dead ideologies that will never be revived, ML is literally the only form of marxism still flourishing
Speculation and also not relevant.
how is that speculation, its material; Im only interested in ideologies with proven merit.
Im willing to take a chance of a synthesis on a new idea, but it has to actually offer people something.
It's speculation because you don't know what the future holds. And just because you're not interested in a particular ideology or don't think it has merit doesn't make it any less communist.
My only point is that words do in fact have meaning, Marxist-Leninism is not synonymous with communism. Therefore, one can be anti-tankie without being anti-communist.
You can be, but that would be called 'idealism' and no one outside of western liberal spheres will take you seriously.
"Orthodox Marxists" can hardly be said to exist, because the classical formulation of Marxism has long been empirically refuted, hence the need for new schools. Even Luxembourgists are more respectable than "Orthodox Marxists".
have you confused the internet for a court room?
Nope, just trying to have a rational, good faith discussion.
Your position is idealist and neither rational nor good faith - don't expect others to meet you with merits your position lacks.
I don't see how acknowledging that other branches of communism and Marxism exist is idealism, bad faith, or irrational.
Because you only advocate for ideas that dont exist in reality, and deride actually existing marxism as 'tankie', you can continue to advocate for idealist positions, but it requires you to build a coherent movement around it otherwise its just masterbation and contrarianism.
That's not what you've done, though, is it? If you're unable to describe your own arguments, how can you possibly hope to engage with other people?
Yeah I'm sure everyone in the lemmyverse is using the word tankie to refer to those of us who support the 1956 Soviet intervention in Hungary /s
How would Trotskyism be any less "authoritarian" Than marxism leninism ? Also almost every claims on some level to be "orthodox marxist", lenin most of all and MLs as well
Omg read theory dammit!
Telling someone to read Marx to understand modern day socialism is like telling someone to read Newton to understand modern day physics tbh.
I mean yeah, if you want to understand the devolopment of physics you are required to understand the foundations it was built on, this is basic study.
Its like telling someone they should read the bible if they want to be christian, or telling someone they should read the instruction manual if they want to actually know what the terms they are using mean.
Yeah, you should read Marx if you want to understand the historical development of socialist ideas, but if that’s where your reading ends, then your ideas are stuck in the past.
Socialism isn’ta religious dogma that is inflexible and unchanging. It’s an intellectual idea that grows and becomes more refined over time.
They’re saying that your take is so incoherent that you need to develop a foundational understanding of the basics.
Before you can learn calculus, you need to learn arithmetic so you don’t end up saying things like 2 != sqrt(4)
I’ve read Marx, I’ve moved on from Marx. You guys clearly haven’t; or at least, you haven’t moved on from Lenin.
I never stop reading marxist stuff, im fully up to date thanks.
Socialism isn't an intellectual idea though. It's not an idea we put on the world, it's a real movement that abolishes the present state of things.
Have you read lenin, mao, sankara, deng, marx or any sociological text on neo-marxism?
No, who are those people?
just some guys and dudes, I like claudia jones too.
You just said this lol
That’s why it’s funny
Yes, I'm glad you understand why this is a funny avenue to mock you through.
Yeah, you're right. It's also important to read Lenin's works on imperialism to understand modern socialism. It's important to study Mao as well.