“People think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldn’t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we haven’t lost a single American in this war,” McConnell said. “Most of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So it’s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.”

cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063

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[–] atticus88th@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Seriously though, where would Ukraine be right now if it didnt have the U.S. right now or even all the other nations donating?

[–] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They'd have been fucked.

Everyone wants to joke about Russian military tech but the Ukrainian forces were operating on outdated technology prior to massive NATO overhauls.

The US likely wanted to field modern weapons against Russia so we could 1. Clear out our back stock of older inventory (which Mitch just admitted, basically) and 2. See how said inventory stacked up in a real war against Russia, since we have basically just been fighting rebel insurgents for the last 30 years of warfare and don't have a good representation of what our modern equipment would be capable of against an actual standing army.

[–] Ryumast3r@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ukrainian soldiers in 2014 vs 2022.

The U.S. and allies, despite what a lot of people say (usually something like "why haven't they helped since the war actually started in 2014") helped transform the Ukranian military into the capable fighting force it is today, and the work started years ago.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago

Fighting a partisan war.

[+] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Neutral

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Like Georgia?

[+] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

They're not in NATO and they haven't tried to attack again, have they? Do you think Georgia is some kind of terrible example? Because I'd rather be in Georgia than Ukraine. I don't think they're making Georgians run into minefields right now.

[–] protist@mander.xyz 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

"Russia isn't invading Georgia right now" isn't a very good argument, given they invaded it 15 years ago, forcibly removed all ethnic Georgians from those regions they invaded, opened two large military bases on Georgian territory, and to this day occupy those regions.

[+] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili blamed for starting Russian war

EU investigation says Tbilisi launched indiscriminate assault on South Ossetia Inquiry accuses both sides in five-day conflict of breaking laws of war

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu

The EU-commissioned report, by a fact-finding mission of more than 20 political, military, human rights and international law experts led by the Swiss diplomat, Heidi Tagliavini, was unveiled in Brussels today after nine months of work.

Flatly dismissing Saakashvili's version, the report said: "There was no ongoing armed attack by Russia before the start of the Georgian operation ... Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive could not be substantiated ... It could also not be verified that Russia was on the verge of such a major attack."

[–] protist@mander.xyz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Russians had moved mercenaries and paramilitary forces into South Ossetia in apparent preparation for armed hostilities before Saakashvili's disastrous offensive, which triggered a Russian invasion and left his country partitioned. But the proper Russian reponse to the artillery barrage came – by land, sea and air – 12 hours after the Georgian action.

I guess Russian mercenaries and paramilitary forces don't count as an invasion, according to this report.

Russian claims of Georgian "genocide" in South Ossetia were dismissed and Russian claims that Georgians had killed 2,000 civilians were found to be wildly exaggerated. The report put the figure of civilian dead at 162 on the South Ossetian side.

The secession of South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia was branded illegal and Russian recognition of the two "states" in breach of international law. The report found that Moscow had been assiduously preparing the secession by, among other things, a policy of "passportification", illegally distributing Russian passports on a mass scale among the breakaway populations.

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They looked at all that and still concluded that Georgia attacked first, and did not attack preemptively because they were threatened.

It's a EU report, it's not pro-Russian. If anything, I'd be biased against Russia. Yet they still conclude that.

[–] protist@mander.xyz 2 points 1 year ago

If the US sends Blackwater across the Rio Grande to occupy Coahuila, then Mexico fights back to push them out, Mexico started it, right

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I guess your right, it's better to be in Georgia... for now. Because what makes you think that if Russia didn't get stuck in Ukraine they wouldn't invade Georgia next? And then Moldova? Did you really buy the "they want to join NATO excuse?". And by your logic during WWII USA should just give up imminently and hand over Hawaii to Japan, right? And England should also just give up. After all it's better to live under fascist regime than fight a war. The so called "French way". That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that the less people live in fascist regimes the better, even if takes fighting a war to free them.

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because what makes you think that if Russia didn’t get stuck in Ukraine they wouldn’t invade Georgia next? And then Moldova?

What makes me think that is that Russia has tried multiple times to solve the conflict in Donbas diplomatically, and that they didn't want to annex it in the Minsk agreements. Can you libs do anything but make inappropriate WW2 comparisons?

You do realize that the Ukrainian president does photo ops hugging Neo-Nazis, and that these guys are free to operate and have state backing? Ukraine even gave Russian Neo-Nazis a bunch of Bradleys and told them to attack into Russia proper. Ukrainians right now are living under a fascist regime, one that openly celebrated Nazi collaborating mass murderers.

I can already hear you say "those are not a majority". Well why does that matter if it's official state policy to promote, fund and arm those fuckers?

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So Ukraine is using a Neo-Nazi group to help them defend their independence while Russia has an actual Nazi army that's murdering civilians and a leader that is an actual Nazi that murders and jails his opponents. Yeah, I think I will still support Ukraine, thanks.

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If Putin is such a Nazi, where's the ethnonationalism? You do know that Nazis believe in racial supremacy?

The regime in Kiev also jails and murders their opponents, and how is that relevant to whether Putin is a Nazi? The Nazis weren't the only ones who did that.

You're removing all meaning from the word Nazi if you call Putin one. He doesn't believe the same shit as the Nazis, and he hasn't done any crimes as heinous as the Nazis'.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Starting a war in Ukraine is a crime as heinous as the ones Nazis did. And Putin a dictator a heinous as they get. I would also rather go to war they condemn my country to being part of the shitty Russian empire that can't offer it's citizens anything besides corruption, poverty, suffering and total disregard of their rights.

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, I tried. You'd rather downplay Nazi mass murder then back down, do you? Get fucked.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm absolutely not downplaying the war in Ukraine.

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No you're not. You are comparing this conflict with one of the worst campaigns of genocide in human history. You're up-playing it.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, I'm just saying what it really is: a underdeveloped, brutal dictatorship attacking democratic country in order to murder innocent civilians and commit countless war crimes while threatening the entire world with hunger and nuclear genocide. But I guess for you it's not so bad and we should just look the other way.

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

in order to murder innocent civilians and commit countless war crimes

You think they do this "in order to murder innocent civilians"? Like this is the end goal? They just love murdering so much. And you base your political opinions on this genius analysis?

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 2 points 1 year ago

What? You think they cry at night after all the murdering they do every day? They really hate it but just have to kill those damned civilians because otherwise Ukraine will join NATO? How many train stations and supermarkets do they have to bomb to stop Ukraine from joining it? Of course they started the war in order to kill people. Is this really a surprise for you?

[–] diffuselight@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You don’t actually know anything about Georgia, do you. If you did…