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[–] bolshevikLovelace@hexbear.net 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

had a migraine yesterday so trying not to look at shit, decided to finally read (listen to) Nevada. and damn it was so fucking good, thanks for yapping about it @ashinadash@hexbear.net stalin-heart

my spoilery thoughtsi was initially a bit shocked by the ending but i let the afterward play and was satisfied with the reasoning. i do really like the representations of "pre" and "post" transition thing. Maria kind of awestruck me for the first half before i realised how much closer i was to James' end of that particular part of the journey. but dear god, i hope that one day i can feel as comfortable in my gender as Maria does

also i really liked the traffic light analogy, which made the fact it was stolen even funnier

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

When my yapping bears fruit catgirl-heart I doubt I'll ever tire of talking about ol Orange Book, a forever pleasure of mine.

I guess that sort of hard stop is still new to a lot of people, which rules, I'm a big fan. I spent a year or two wrapping my head around it so you're well ahead of me, lol. I also never thought about it like that, but yeah, I guess Maria is pretty comfortable in her gender even if literally every other aspect of being trans is ruining her life. That's probably why I idolised her a lot as a teen...

Y'know what though, I'm not sure how I feel ahout that traffic light thing nowadays. It's a weird thing to have her say, right next to "Kate Bornstein didn't go far enough", I think. I never really "got it" though, like I get what it's saying...

[–] bolshevikLovelace@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

thank you for the time, the orange book ritual worked saruman-orb

I guess that sort of hard stop is still new to a lot of people, which rules, I'm a big fan.

i definitely felt a drop in my heart when James just straight up got on the bus and didn't look back. but i also think that i might have reacted the same way if someone tried to drag me out of my conformable, stoner, "no i'm definitely cis" state a few years before i was ready (is James ever ready? my reading is that he will be, just not in the amount of time that Maria pushes for) - as much as i now wish someone had. there was a relevant quote in the afterward for this -

[...] one of the most common ways for trans women to self-flagellate is with a whip labeled "I should have come out sooner." It's unfair to ourselves. [...]

which is something i'll have to work on...

I'm not sure how I feel ahout that traffic light thing nowadays.

that's cool, i appreciate the different view on it. a paragraph explaining why i liked it was meant to be here but i wasn't happy with it. could you tell me more? i would love to hear what you think on the matter

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 7 points 2 days ago (2 children)

which is something i'll have to work on...

I have always liked Nevada as sort of an antidote to this. Nobody deserves to self-flagellate like that...

could you tell me more? i would love to hear what you think on the matter

I guess I have all kinds of weird new views on orange book in light of the fact that Whipping Girl is uh, what it is. I guess the cars-which-also-are-constructs statement feels a bit mean spirited, knowing where the book gets its "theory" from. I dunno, you know the bit where Maria is talking about realising the whole, 'there is going to have to be some intentionality in the way I present myself if I want to be read correctly'? I hang on that one too because, in orange book parlence: Dude, no? Actually as it turns out, there are plenty of cases where you discover that the cars aren't constructed that well and you can pretty much ignore traffic lights, I think. At the very absolute least this is not universal knowledge.

I mean, I dunno right, the traffic light bit is right fuckin next to the paragraph yapping about how in some dyke communities that trans guys come from, having a punk rock gender is kind of chic, and it's hard to read this as not being kind of shitty when the word "subversivism" keeps flashing through my head.

Also there is this part that utterly kills me:

He’s pretty into it: for Maria, being trans is like, Here is this shitty thing I have to deal with, but for Kieran it’s like, Fuck yeah! Being trans, all right! Trans guys seem to have this relationship to being trans a lot more often than trans women.

I love you, Maria Griffiths. Trans men get to have all the fun, for sure. citations-needed I suppose in total I have difficulty not reading most things Maria says about gender as being reductive, and some part of me takes joy in the fact that it sucks to suck, for her. The close proximity almost makes me wonder if it's deliberately taking the piss out of her again, but I find it hard to parse this as a secret own on Whipping Girl, Idk.

normal

[–] bolshevikLovelace@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Actually as it turns out, there are plenty of cases where you discover that the cars aren't constructed that well and you can pretty much ignore traffic lights, I think.

ahhhh alright i think i can understand that. i just don't really know what a place like that looks like yet. i can acknowledge they exist but i'm kinda forced into the spaces where i have to prove that i'm a woman (for now). i'm not entirely comfortable in these spaces either but i need to work, there's only so much family i have, and i have all the same friends from high school. since coming out i'm now painfully aware of every gendered action i do and depending on the reaction of whatever cis person i'm with, sometimes it does feel like i miss a red light and get my gender identity obliterated in front of me

maybe that's just another coping mechanism for me though, maybe i need to find where the traffic lights don't really do shit. i'm hoping when i leave this city (surely that will solve all my issues, right??), there will be enough of a change to find some new social spaces. maybe i'm deviating a bit from the point and making it about myself, i do agree with your take overall.

I love you, Maria Griffiths. Trans men get to have all the fun, for sure.

oh yeah that was a fucking insane take, shit made me go side-eye-1. like yeah sure Maria, trans men just don't have dysphoria i guess Β―\(ツ)/Β―. i have exactly one trans friend and he's transmasc - while i do fall into little traps where i find things i'm jealous of (he 100% passes, he's never had to worry about voice training, i watched him come out 9 years before i did, etc.), that just disregards everything else that he's had to go through to get here. like i got to miss out on all the high school bullying shit and he certainly did not

I have difficulty not reading most things Maria says about gender as being reductive

yeah that tracks lol. i find it funny that every few chapters "she finally gets it!", before realising she still knows about as much as before. bit hypocritical of me to point out, i know i do the same shit badeline-disgust

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

i just don't really know what a place like that looks like yet. i can acknowledge they exist but i'm kinda forced into the spaces where i have to prove that i'm a woman (for now). i'm not entirely comfortable in these spaces either but i need to work, there's only so much family i have, and i have all the same friends from high school.

It is cool honestly, I mean I worked too until I got fired (blue collar job) and I still have my family around Idk. I also had my friends from highschool for a while but most of em were queer anyway.

since coming out i'm now painfully aware of every gendered action i do and depending on the reaction of whatever cis person i'm with, sometimes it does feel like i miss a red light and get my gender identity obliterated in front of me

Okay, this is going to sound like I'm taking the piss or asking loaded questions, but I am genuinely sincerely wanting to know: what are some examples of gendered actions like this, and more importantly almost, what do the red lights look like? The most I can possibly draw is, I could sorta tell when one of the dudes at work was trying to treat me like One of the Boys, but for one fuck em, for two it was very easy to disabuse them of this notion, because you cannot have brotalk witth me. But even that I wouldn't describe as a "red light"?

maybe that's just another coping mechanism for me though, maybe i need to find where the traffic lights don't really do shit. i'm hoping when i leave this city (surely that will solve all my issues, right??), there will be enough of a change to find some new social spaces. maybe i'm deviating a bit from the point and making it about myself,

I want to know about people's experiences so dw :3 and yeah maybe, I mean I know I find being around my family constraining because they can't relate to me anymore and only see the fifteen year old boy I was. It does feel freeing to get away from shit like that ✨

while i do fall into little traps where i find things i'm jealous of (he 100% passes, he's never had to worry about voice training, i watched him come out 9 years before i did, etc.), that just disregards everything else that he's had to go through to get here.

Yyyyyyeah, omori-miserable which is already fuckin stupid on its own, like waow great observation, truly it's so "easy" for our transmasc comrades... When you start to draw the lines back to subversivism, and if you're cursed you start thinking about Baeddelism and yeah this is insufferable cringe. I mean it's only a couple of degrees removed from what you hear on certain imageboards...

Man this is fuckin awful, if you are a transmasc user and reading this, I'm sorry yea

i find it funny that every few chapters "she finally gets it!", before realising she still knows about as much as before. bit hypocritical of me to point out, i know i do the same shit

I think, when Maria isn't doing ideologically scuffed classification of various genders, this is part of her appeal. She's even aware to an extent that her disaffected monologue is often keeping her from moving past things and get better. We love our bitter, sarcastic garbage lady because she reflects our failings in a halfway loveable manner, I think catgirl-happy

[–] bolshevikLovelace@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

what are some examples of gendered actions like this, and more importantly almost, what do the red lights look like?

happy to share! there's still people very close to me that just can't get past me not being a man and that's actually easier to disregard. like i'm clearly fucking not, how did you not see how shit of a job i was doing pretending to be one? but i've done this big thing, i've asserted that i'm a woman, and now i carry all these expectations of being a woman that i've only had 6 months to learn about.

when i found out i was autistic i became hyperaware of all the masking i was doing to pretend to be NT. when i found out i was trans i thought the same thing about pretending to be a man. but now that i'm out as trans, i've fallen right into another fucking framework that i have to conform to ohnoes

specific examples. cw dysphoria, brainwormsbest not to read


We love our bitter, sarcastic garbage lady because she reflects our failings in a halfway loveable manner, I think

ahh that's for sure, it's a nice reminder that i don't have to be perfect. i know i've had lots of fuckups and i know i will continue doing so. thanks for that Maria lea-finger-guns___

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

This comment is a lot all at once catgirl-huh let's have a look... I swear I won't be mean.

but now that i'm out as trans, i've fallen right into another fucking framework that i have to conform to ohnoes

You don't, though? You can always just not. Autistic cis women have been very pointedly not conforming that way for at least a while, and while yes it's not exactly the same, you really can just wear like, sweatpants and a hoodie, if you want. I do! There actually aren't rules, I promise. It gets easier, I think, as you go on and get more comfortable with your gender.

oh, brainworms

i can't walk somewhere without being anxious of if my hips are moving enough, i freak out when my shoulders slouch in a certain way, i try to make myself as small as possible, i have to wear my most fashionable outfit but never the same one twice,

Sorry, is there a specific way women have to slouch their shoulders? I guess I've been cheating by not doing that and still getting gendered right... Plus, who actually pays attention to anyone's hip movement... madeline-shock I would say that shit's cisnormative but it isn't even,I can GUARANTEE YOU a decent percent of cis women do not meet whatever parameters you have set here. It all smells too much of "etiquette classes", fucking finishing schools set up by the bourgeoisie to uphold patriarchal norms... Shit, see CIS WOMEN need fucking CLASSES to learn this shit, even! It isn't real, it was made up BY A GUY badeline-rage

With regard to making yourself small, eh y'know, is femme only when someone is a certain definition of small? I'm not sure how much it helps though honestly... The outfit 'rules' though, that's not a real thing for anybody. I bet most people do not bother looking decent to go get groceries, y'know...

but everywhere else i feel this constant overwhelming anxiety about presenting "correctly" and it's exhausting. i want to say "fuck it all, i'll do whatever tf i want" but the more i keep this coping mechanism going, the more i do actually feel correctly gendered by these people. i don't want to care but i feel like i don't have a choice

I promise you do, though. Anecdotally speaking I had worse results (in terms of misgendering) when I was deliberately presenting very femme all the time, Idk what that says about anything. But disregarding that you don't owe anyone a performance in exchange for basic respect, I'm just not sure it actually helps 100% of the time. I dunno, you could always start really small, like if you wanna wear the same outfit two in a row, you could? Go out with less or even no makeup, just do these once or twice as an experiment, see how it goes? I sort of took it slow too, I mean there was probably five or six years between the last time I went out fully dressed up as a matter of course, and the first time I went out in sweatpants and a hoodie, without doing my hair. You don't have to go full burn-your-bra right away, it's about being comfortable meow-hug

a red light is something like "ha! you fucked up, i see now that you're not really a woman. you've gone and justified all the preconceptions i have about you and all trans people." i know that nobody's realistically thinking that but i get that vibe when someone specifically treats me differently to cis women (e.g. giving everyone else a hug and me a handshake, openly objectifying women in a voice call and expecting me to agree). it makes me overanalyze and try to figure out what my "tell" was.

Two things: One, you won't ever figure out what your "tell" was, first because it doesn't exist but also because whether or not anyone passes as a gender to someone else is an entirely subjective matter that has many factors, that amount to their perception of a person. Two, though, I'm not really sure all or any of the examples you cite are passing matters. Someone who's gonna be shit like that is just a transphobe, really it wouldn't matter if you were perfectively cisnormatively passing at all times. The second they know you're trans, that shit will come out. Trying to mold your appearance and presentation to the whims and perceptions of transphobes does not seem that cash money, and also they should die.

I don't know how much it even bears thinking about. Obviously getting treated differently by transphobe fucks like that is deeply unpleasant, but the problem is not with you, it's with them! and also they should die, violently. Knowing someone is trans (however that perception has been arrived at) should not change your treatment of them like this.

it's a nice reminder that i don't have to be perfect. i know i've had lots of fuckups and i know i will continue doing so.

Yeah this is pretty much the core appeal of Nevada, I think. Maria as a character rules so much, even though she's sincerely shitty in many of her takes, the portrayal of her as a deeply flawed trans person absolutely rocks. Ah, my smelly beloved... kris-love

[–] bolshevikLovelace@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

thank you, you were very kind (sorry it kind of spilled out all at once, i blame caffeine?). i'll try to take on your advice, i know you're right on every point - i just need to internalise it.

spoiler

Shit, see CIS WOMEN need fucking CLASSES to learn this shit, even! It isn't real, it was made up BY A GUY

yeahhhhh fuck that guy blob-stabby

Trying to mold your appearance and presentation to the whims and perceptions of transphobes does not seem that cash money, and also they should die.

i know and definitely fuck transphobes, but i think my anxiety tries to assume everyone thinks like one. they were shit examples too, my mind was traveling somewhere else but i was trying to highlight how much i think about passing. it's so exhausting. i'm sure it well get better with time though, i can hope


genuinely tysm for the chat meow-hug , i got a lot to think about so i'm gonna go ralsei-doobie and chew on it

trans-heart

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago

Oh no need to apologise, I didn't mean to imply it was "too much" or anything, good reply tbqh. And yeah the internalisation is the hard part :nyoro~:

spoiler

yeahhhhh fuck that guy

That guy deserves to be on the wall or something, there are a lot of probably-already-dead guys who have a LOT to answer for popuko-gun

i think my anxiety tries to assume everyone thinks like one. they were shit examples too, my mind was traveling somewhere else but i was trying to highlight how much i think about passing. it's so exhausting.

Especially with autism, it's way too much to be thinking about all at once. Social cues and whatever is enough, no more weird incomprehensible garbage please! lea-tired I mean, for sure some people do think like transphobes (read: are transphobes) that way, but they're not even remotely worth worrying about, fuck em tbh.

You're welcome meow-hug and fuck yeah, ralsei-doobie !!!!! Lfg trans-heart

[–] Ambii@hexbear.net 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

The traffic light passage next to the punk rock hairstyle passage for sure feels icky even within the text's own context.

I mean if Maria/Binnie meant it in like a "gender roles suck but you have to appease the cis or you risk harm" way then I can only read the passages re: trans guys as her saying that trans guys have safety and privilege to genderfuck openly. (i.e. subversivism)

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 6 points 2 days ago

yea The text has pretty fuckin dim views on trans men so it wouldn't surprise me in the least, to be honest with you. Not that far of a leap. It would pair nicely with the "trans men are always taking up space and talking over trans women" stuff, I think!