this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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No, you created your own hypothetical and answered based on that. My hypothetical has only 2 possible answers, and you refuse to answer it because you know it dismantles your stance.
The hypothetical you presented about asking a vegan if they'd eat pork or beef is perfectly valid by the way. If they answered "neither" they would also not be answering the question. But that wouldn't make veganism indefensible, don't put words in my mouth.
Both options are fundamentally unacceptable to me. There is no conceivable situation where I would vote for either.
If you're somehow compelling me to act against my will, then, I don't know, I might pick one randomly, or I might pick the one you don't like out of spite, or I might pick the one you do like out of the hope you'll be merciful to me in the future, since in this universe you can apparently control my body against my will.
Since you refuse to engage, let's rephrase:
Which would be the better outcome, Trump winning, or Kamala winning?
Kamala winning, at least in the short term, but it does set a bad precedent if it means the democrats learn they can support genocide and get away with it.
And in the long term?
(Thank you for finally answering)
I'm not a psychic, so it's difficult to say, but I will answer Kamala since you are so insistent on unambiguous answers.
So in the short and long term, based on our best assessments, we agree the better outcome of this election is for Kamala to win over Trump*.
Do you also agree that there is an (effectively) 0% chance of a third-party candidate winning this election? That come election night, the winner will either be Kamala or Trump?
Yes.
In that case, do you think people in swing states should vote for Kamala?
No. I don't live in a swing state, but even if I did, I wouldn't. However, I can respect their decision as long as they respect mine.
I'm not asking about you and your vote, I'm asking about the position and rhetoric you push around here.
If you agree that Kamala would be better than Trump short and long term, and that one of them will be president, then how can you, in good faith, advocate for people not to vote in a way that increases the odds of the better option and decreases the odds of the worse one?
Because one being better than the other is not the same as being an acceptable choice. If I'm in a burning building, what fundamentally needs to happen is that I escape. You can argue that the flames on one side of the room are higher than the flames on the other side of the room, but I don't care, because if I stay in the room I'll die. The only thing that matters is finding the door.
You asked if I thought a third party could win this election, and the answer is no. But could a third party win a future election? The answer to that is yes, maybe. The results of this election will inform voters in future elections of whether a third party is viable. The most important thing is increasing the chances of getting to an acceptable outcome, everything else is secondary to that goal.
In the meantime, voting third party can influence things in other ways. If the Democrats can only win by getting a third party's endorsement, then they can potentially be brought to the bargaining table.
But you already agreed that for swing state voters, there are effectively only 2 choices, and that one is better than the other in both the short and long term.
Again, you agreed that escape is effectively not an option through voting. Moving toward the side of the room with fewer flames is objectively the better choice while you work on establishing an escape.
Why on earth would you stand in the middle and let the fire decide?
No. Not in a first-past-the-post system. Can't happen.
I bet we'd agree that that system needs to change, but it will not happen by voting 3rd party every 4 years.
Precisely. And within this system, with this short of a runway, Kamala is the only acceptable out of the 2 outcomes we agree are the only 2 possible.
Hold up. All I agreed with is that in this election, it wasn't realistic for a third party to win. You're trying to take that as meaning there's no reason to vote third party. As I explained, it's possible for third parties to wield influence, and giving them more votes gives them more ability to do that.
There are effectively two possible winners but that's not the same as there being effectively two choices. The question isn't "Do you think a third party can win this election," the question is, "Do you think voting third party cause any positive effects?" to which my answer is yes.
I did no such thing. You're twisting my words and jumping to conclusions.
I'm amazed that you managed to miss the point that hard. I don't give a shit which fire is more comfortable to burn to death in. If there's no way out, then I will still try to wail on the walls until I can't anymore.
Kamala is fundamentally unacceptable. Again, you're just acting like things are established when they very much are not.
Again -- no shot. Not in FPTP. You virtue signaling every 4 years has never and will never change that.
Yes you did. You agreed that that only Trump or Kamala will be president after this election. Don't backtrack, there's a reason I insisted on these answers.
Again, why would you not wail on the walls in the room with less fire? What an absurd stance...
Again, you already agreed she is the better option of the only 2 outcomes that will happen. Don't twist my words ;)