this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2024
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Lebanese girl becomes most notable victim of pager blasts (www.aa.com.tr)
submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by Deceptichum@quokk.au to c/world@lemmy.world
233 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

10-year-old Fatima Jaafar Abdullah was killed in pager explosions in Lebanon.

Israel murders another kid again.

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[–] xenomor@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (13 children)

First of all, there was no way for Israel to know whether the people they claim to be targeting were combatants when the attack occurred since Israel had no information about the status of these bombs when they chose to detonate them.

Secondly, placing a bomb in a common device that you have every reason to believe will spend much of its time in the proximity of civilians, in homes, markets and other public spaces, and choosing to detonate it without knowledge of the location of the bomb, or it’s proximity to your supposed target, is actively avoiding distinguishing between ‘combatants’ and civilians. I can’t believe that western brain rot requires this to be spelled out for it.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

First of all, there was no way for Israel to know whether the people they claim to be targeting were combatants when the attack occurred since Israel had no information about the status of these bombs when they chose to detonate them.

So it's your view that any explosive that isn't tracked at all times with 100% accuracy is a war crime.

Uh. 'Interesting'.

Secondly, placing a bomb in a common device that you have every reason to believe will spend much of its time in the proximity of civilians, in homes, markets and other public spaces, and choosing to detonate it without knowledge of the location of the bomb, or it’s proximity to your supposed target, is actively avoiding distinguishing between ‘combatants’ and civilians. I can’t believe that western brain rot requires this to be spelled out for it.

'Western brain rot', apparently, is when someone else disproves your utterly and blatantly incorrect claim about the definition of a war crime and then you flail around desperately seeking another justification for your claim once disproven. Okay.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)

This is terrorism and a violation of International humanitarian law. It's not a war crime because Lebanon and Israel are not formally at war; yet Israel just attacked civilians in public, including health workers, and even officials in Parliament.

As an attack on Hezbollah militant fighters, sure, fair game. But this didn't just attack them.

Photographs and videos filmed by victims and witnesses to the incident and reviewed by Human Rights Watch showed pagers exploding in various locales, such as grocery stores. Other videos that appear to be linked to the incident show adults and children in emergency rooms with severe penetrating traumatic injuries to their heads, torsos. and limbs, and other injuries consistent with the detonation of high explosives.

Hezbollah, in a statement, said that the pagers belonged “to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions” and blamed the Israeli government. US and former Israeli officials speaking to the media said that Israel was responsible for the attack. The Israeli military has not commented.

“Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully indiscriminate, using a means of attack that could not be directed at a specific military target and as a result would strike military targets and civilians without distinction. A prompt and impartial investigation into the attacks should be urgently conducted.”

  • Lama Fakih, Middle East and North Africa Director at Human Rights Watch
[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This is terrorism and a violation of International humanitarian law. It’s not a war crime because Lebanon and Israel are not formally at war

War crimes are not restricted to polities formally at war.

As an attack on Hezbollah militant fighters, sure, fair game. But this didn’t just attack them.

Photographs and videos filmed by victims and witnesses to the incident and reviewed by Human Rights Watch showed pagers exploding in various locales, such as grocery stores. Other videos that appear to be linked to the incident show adults and children in emergency rooms with severe penetrating traumatic injuries to their heads, torsos. and limbs, and other injuries consistent with the detonation of high explosives.

Unless there's some proof that Israel targeted civilians or was exceptionally lax in targeting combatants, this has no relevance as to whether what they did was a war crime.

Hezbollah, in a statement, said that the pagers belonged “to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions” and blamed the Israeli government. US and former Israeli officials speaking to the media said that Israel was responsible for the attack. The Israeli military has not commented.

Hezbollah is a paramilitary group. It's going to be a hard sell to any lawyer or judge that targeting their members is targeting noncombatants.

“Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today."

That's a very curious claim regarding international law on booby traps.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Sure, my point is that this is still terrorism and a violation of international humanitarian law. It's worth noting that Hezbollah members aren't just militant fighters. There are also social services and Parliamentary members, which are not combatants.

Hezbollah organizes and maintains an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut'ah. One of its established institutions, Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign, is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah controls the Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.

"Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members".

Hezbollah holds 14 of the 128 seats in the Parliament of Lebanon and is a member of the Resistance and Development Bloc. According to Daniel L. Byman, it is "the most powerful single political movement in Lebanon." Hezbollah, along with the Amal Movement, represents most of Lebanese Shi'a. Unlike Amal, Hezbollah has not disarmed. Hezbollah participates in the Parliament of Lebanon.

Edit: your linked Westpoint article is proving my point

See Quotes

International humanitarian law does not outlaw booby-traps altogether. However, given the grave risks booby-traps pose to the civilian population, IHL places stringent restrictions on their use. The ICRC, for instance, has concluded, correctly so, that the “use of booby-traps which are in any way attached to or associated with objects or persons entitled to special protection under international humanitarian law or with objects that are likely to attract civilians” is a violation of customary IHL (Customary IHL Study, rule 80).

Second, booby-traps may not take the “form of an apparently harmless portable object which is specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material and to detonate when it is disturbed or approached” (art. 7(2)). The U.S. Department of Defense’s Law of War Manual provides the example of “booby-traps manufactured to resemble items, such as watches, personal audio players, cameras, toys, and the like.” It observes that the “prohibition is intended to prevent the production of large quantities of dangerous objects that can be scattered around and are likely to be attractive to civilians, especially children” (§ 6.12.4.8).

Third, booby-traps may not be attached or associated with the following specified objects (art. 7(1)). Including medical facilities, medical equipment, medical supplies or medical transportation;

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It’s worth noting that Hezbollah members aren’t just militant fighters.

The SS also included members that weren't 'militant fighters', running a vast economic, political, and charitable apparatus, but few would dispute that attacking members of the SS would be attacking members of a paramilitary organization and legitimate targets.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Every part of the SS was engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide, even the medical corp. How are you comparing them to Hezbollah, which only exists out of resistance to Israel's ethnic cleansing of Lebanon?

You haven't made an argument for why they should not be considered non-conbatants

Non-combatant is a term of art in the law of war and international humanitarian law to refer to civilians who are not taking a direct part in hostilities; persons, such as combat medics and military chaplains, who are members of the belligerent armed forces but are protected because of their specific duties (as currently described in Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions, adopted in June 1977); combatants who are placed hors de combat; and neutral persons, such as peacekeepers, who are not involved in fighting for one of the belligerents involved in a war. This particular status was first recognized under the Geneva Conventions with the First Geneva Convention of 1864.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Every part of the SS was engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide, even the medical corp.

Only if you assume that all support for the institutions of the SS was in some indirect way ethnic cleansing and genocide.

How are you comparing them to Hezbollah, which only exists out of resistance to Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Lebanon?

Do I have to quote Hezbollah's extensive history of antisemitism and calls for ethnic cleansing of Israel?

You haven’t made an argument for why they should not be considered non-conbatants

I quite literally did.

-According to Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions, combatants are:

the armed forces of a party to a conflict, and also groups and units that are under a command responsible to that party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that party is answerable to a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system, which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

No, I mean I can't find a single part of the SS that wasn't engaged in Ethnic Cleansing. Nor can I find any sources for 'non-militant' SS personnel being attacked, do you have a source for this? I can find of attacks on civilians, like the bombing of Dresden, that are war crimes. There is also the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which does not distinguish any German causalities as 'non-militant,' however that situation is much more similar to Gaza's situation in relation to Israel than Israel's relation to Lebanon.

Hezbollah's ideology is both Anti-zionist and anti-judiaism, which Amal Saad-Ghorayeb can analyze and describe far better than I can.

Anti-Zionism and Israel (Chapter 7)

Hizbu’llah’s reluctance to grant Israel recognition is rooted in its rendition of the origins of the Israeli state, which it unequivocally portrays as a ‘rape’ or ‘usurpation’ of Palestinian land, there by rendering it a state which ‘is originally based on aggression’. By extension, the continued existence of the Israeli state constitutes ‘an act of aggression’, insofar as it represents a perpetuation of the original act of aggression. Therefore, Hizbu’llah ‘does not know of anything called Israel’. It only knows a land called ‘occupied Palestine’. In fact, the party never refers to the state of Israel as such, but to ‘occupied Palestine’ or ‘the Zionist entity’.

  • pg 134

Based on the party’s delegitimisation of the Israeli state, its excoria-tion of Israeli state and society and its emphasis on the Zionist essence of both, certain existential elements of Hizbu’llah’s conflict with Israel can be readily discerned. Upon closer examination of these elements, the following three existential themes emerge: the party’s legitimisation of the use of violence against an essentially Zionist society; its rejection of the notion of a negotiated peace settlement with the Israeli state; and its pursuit of the liberation of Palestine.

  • pg 142

According to the party, this aspiration to return ‘every grain of Palestinian soil’ to its rightful owners necessitates Israel’s ‘oblit-eration from existence’. Put simply, the reconstitution of one state is contingent upon the annihilation of another. The only way that the Palestinians can return to Jerusalem, and the ‘original Palestineof 1948’ generally, is for all Jews, with the exception of those native to Palestine, to ‘leave this region and return to the countries from whence they came’

  • pg 162

Anti-Judaism (Chapter 8)

Although Zionism and Judaism are synonymous in Hizbu’llah’s lexicon, the resulting confluence of the party’s anti-Zionism and anti-Judaism does not render the latter contingent upon the former. While there may be some truth in the contention propounded by some scholars that the conflict with Zionism has been the chief cause of Arab anti-Semitism, in the case of contemporary Islam, and Hizbu’llah in particular, it would be more appropriate to state that Zionism has greatly impacted on an existing, yet latent, anti-Judaism. Although this might be hard to determine, especially since Hizbu’llah owes its birth to Israel’s occupation of Lebanon, and hence to Zionism, the anti-Judaism of Hizbu’llah is detached from Zionism insofar as Islam is staunchly anti-Judaic.

If we are to employ Lewis’ criteria for anti-Semitism, we would be led to the ineluctable conclusion that Islamic anti-Judaism closely resembles anti-Semitism in that it both demonises the Jews and, according to at least to one Qur’anic verse, accuses them of conspiring against humanity. The following excursus will strive to illustrate Islam’s deep-rooted animosity towards the Jews by examining several Qur’anic verses which pertain to the Jews or the Children of Israel. The objective of this analysis is to show that, while Hizbu’llah’s anti-Judaism is to a considerable extent influenced by Zionism, it is not contingent upon it.

  • pg 174

You quite literally didn't, Protocol 1 is describing militant forces, not social workers, doctors, politicians, or their families.

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