this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
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chapotraphouse

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[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 85 points 2 months ago (7 children)

Hate to say it but, wtf does this mean anyway? Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?

My honest and most realistic appraisal is that our support means nothing, we have nothing to offer, and any engagement in discourse about the moral or political value of the projects of the Russian state or the Chinese state is basically fruitless when the discussion among those in the halls of power is so far removed from our discussion that the difference between the most fervently critical Anarchist comrade and the most ridiculously pro-SMO ML is completely irrelevant. It's not exactly arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but functionally it's just as useless of a discussion. If we all agree that we have to show up at protests resisting the MIC, calling for peace, supporting leftist local politicians, and doing everything we can to raise union membership, what difference does it make that I 'stan China' but you 'critically support Putin despite Duginist elements in the Russian government'? Is it not just as fruitless as political compass memes? Because from where I'm looking it literally is just PCM for people that have read the manifesto. The only value of the argument is to intellectually deduce the truth, a project that's completely separate to actually achieving political power.

And yes, where you land in the spectrum of supporting Russia and China can influence which political party in your area to support, but practically the only material difference a minority party will make is whether it's going to support sanctions and tariffs against Russia and China, or it won't. However, not to No True Scotsman, but no true leftist party is going to jump on such a blatantly neoliberal and imperialist position as to economically punish 2 of the largest populations on Earth while knowing how little effect those sanctions will have on the ruling classes of the target states. So we're back to square 1, regardless of your position, the actions you can take regarding Russia and China are the same.

Just to finish off the rant, here's a comment from 72T that I found really insightful. TL;DR the question isn't, "should we support a multipolar world," because we have no power to change that reality, whether it's going to arrive or not is entirely out of our hands. The question is "what is to be done about the incoming multipolar world," especially locally, with regards to how it affects our approach to building power.

No shade on JT though, as far as the question exists in a vacuum that's a good answer.

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 43 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, it's important to, as Mao said, properly delineate who's our friends and who's our enemies. Otherwise, your org will do cringey shit like the DSA delegation snubbing the Cuban president and talking to a bunch of traitors working for the CIA instead.

Unless you want your org to be completely isolated from the international community and abandon internationalism, it has to connect and break bread with other orgs throughout the world and perhaps even anti-imperialist governments. While the DSA shit the bed with regards to Cuba, I think the DSA also send a delegation to Venezuela where they met Maduro. Obviously, Maduro isn't going to meet with a bunch of dipshits who shittalk him by calling him an authoritarian dictator, but by personally meeting with Maduro, they have tacitly (and rightfully) support Maduro and uphold the Bolivarian Revolution.

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 28 points 2 months ago

Synthesis: The answer to this question,

Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?

is that it is inconsequential what an individual leftist believes, but it matters a great deal for national leftist organizations to connect and build solidarity with international leftist organizations. What the American left (for example) has to offer China is quite simply a counterpart in America which can participate in the broader socialist movement, which is mutually beneficial. If/when shit does hit the fan, the left has to be ready both theoretically and organizationally.

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 23 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I really agree with this but I’ll add a little more. A lot of the theory written by people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Mao occurred in the context of historical upheaval during which theory was absolutely necessary to chart a path forward for an actually existing political movement. So those writings should be understood first as practical and only second as abstractly philosophical.

Theoretical development is still worth doing in order to prepare, but there is way too much emphasis on abstract correctness over real successes.

[–] Yeat@hexbear.net 18 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] TBooneChickens@hexbear.net 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

great comment theory of history

[–] SpiderFarmer@hexbear.net 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Make a c/greatposting and chuck this in it.

[–] Egon@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago

Wasn't that what best of hexbear was for?

[–] sinstrium@hexbear.net 17 points 2 months ago (2 children)

If you stand back and be silent when "enemy" countries get slandered, you are legitimizing imperalism and help cultural imperalism do its work. This applies on a micro & marco-level.

[–] Tunnelvision@hexbear.net 12 points 2 months ago

I think it was Xi who personally said the digital space was an important ideological battleground of the 21st century. Posting is praxis people.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Foreign policy is not democratized. The range of acceptable discourse inside imperialist countries never spans past the point where you turn around and actually oppose imperialism, the opposition actually lands so far away that any speech against empire is thoroughly delegitimized and often holds negative power to change the reality of imperialism, because by holding that position you become the boogeyman for the moderates to rally against. Not that we shouldn't be anti-imperialists, but thinking that you will just change reality by having the correct ideas, with no concrete plan as to how you'll enact those ideas into material reality is ahistorical and antimaterialist. Note that when it comes to organizing in favor of Palestine the situation is entirely different because we do have things we can do to improve the situation for Palestinians, but the same can't be said for Russia and Ukraine, or anything related to China. The only thing you have to offer is discourse, which the ruling class has the power to invert in their favor. No amount of 500 follower hammer and sickle accounts on Twitter dunking on White House press releases is going to stop aid to Ukraine, you're probably getting Twitter to get even more reactionary if anything.

So that ties back into my point, we have no organization broad enough or strong enough to actually change reality w.r.t. foreign policy, especially towards the main enemies of empire. We're just a part of the culture, part of the superstructure that maintains the base but has little power to materially change it until we can have enough workers willing to withhold their labor politically conscious and organized. Once we're at that point then those questions do become important and we have a broader international left to fit into.

[–] CarbonScored@hexbear.net 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Being aware of what is good and bad, and spreading awareness of those distinctions, must surely be useful. Discussing and working out what sucks and what is cool is a big part of how we as commies organise in the first place to then get said power. If you don't ask these questions before you have power, you'll find yourself in bed with unsavory types.

[–] lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 2 months ago

Anti-X or Y country sentiment is a powerful tool to discredit the left. A lot of people are afraid to engage in Marxism because "it's gonna be like the China which is bad"

[–] sawne128@hexbear.net 10 points 2 months ago

You failed to consider thoughts and prayers.

[–] Munrock@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 months ago

I think the only thing Western leftists have to offer is withholding their consent for war/conflict.

China's recent changes in Visa policy are interesting. Previously it's been evident that they've been willing to spend zero effort on their pop image in the West, which shows how much difference they think public opinion has on Western government policy. Visa free entry being opened to a swathe of Western countries reflects a change in attitude: maybe they think that a positive Westerner view of China is more valuable now, maybe they think it's easier to push back against "China Bad" propaganda now.

The fact that US and UK are notably excluded from the visa-free policy suggests Beijing sees more potential in Australian and European public opinion.