papertowels

Agreed on all counts. Thanks for the conversation and differing perspectives. I hope you have a good weekend!

Yes, I'd agree that for it to be a punishment entitlement would need to be involved - for example nobody feels punished that they didn't win the lotto by buying one ticket.

Entitlement can take the form of the status quo, whether or not that's justified is not a conversation I have enough critical thinking for.

I think what I haven't seen cleared up in this thread is there are actually two reasons for 4b floating around - one is to try and bring about societal change by crashing the birth rate, but the other is simply out of safety and self-preservation of women. If we focus on the latter, it makes sense that women in more dangerous societies will choose 4b more often than those where they feel safer.

The conclusion I come to is that 4b will be more common in states that do not value the bodily autonomy/safety of women, which I'd say largely points to conservative states.

In a way, if safety and bodily autonomy is the reason for choosing 4b, it will self-regulate to not "punish" or affect those who generally vote to pass policies treating women properly.

I think there was some nuance that was lost in the call for "all" women to participate in 4b

A punishment requires a penalty or deprivation, and since dating is not a requirement, there can be no deprivation occurring.

Fwiw, a common example of a punishment removing something that is desired but not required is temporarily taking away X from a rowdy kid, be it phone, snacks, etc, which does poke a hole in that assertion.

That's a great point, we've been around the block so we're less receptive to enshittification bullshit

My parents sent me a video from a Chinese "practice English" channel about the negatives of Kamala.

It was fucking insane, the channel was mostly "this is what you say at the doctor's office", "let's practice ordering food", and then hard conservative talking point videos casually thrown in. I've always told others that non-english speaking communities in America are especially prone to conservative radicalization because they're so isolated from the general public.

I love them, but I was furious when I replied. It's a little sad honestly, I've given up hope on them politically. Had to make it very clear that if they talk to me or our kids about politics we will not engage and will just leave.

Yeah, others have portrayed that as the goal here.

I just feel like I wouldn't feel particularly attached to the fate of a country raised by brainwashing conservative families anyways, so it's a scorched earth approach. Yes, you've broken the system, and it can be remade now, but those doing the remaking likely won't carry your values....

Cute (I actually laughed, haha), but the assumption that meme makes is that it's clear the gal doesn't want to participate in the conversation due to body language.

There's none of that when you're commenting in a public politics community. You're not posting in a community for 4b, for example. Additionally, you're the one that made the initial comment.

By attempting to talk over and belittle others who respond you're acting like the guy in the meme.

Bodily autonomy is the ability to choose 4b, not the reason to do so. Folks arguing against 4b have not disrespected the ability to do 4b. Therefore bodily autonomy is still respected.

The system which is made up of a bunch of kids raised in brainwashed conservative households.

I feel like this is, in part, voluntarily abstaining from passing your values down to the next generation, which night not have the intended effect.

So this is more scorched earth and punitive than it is trying to fix things?

Is a future dominated by kids raised by these families one worth going through all this effort for?

As I mentioned in another comment, one of the conservatives I know put their kid in a captain America outfit yesterday cuz he was "defending America".

Aaaah, thanks!