this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2023
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35
HS2 is officially ‘unachievable’ after being given red rating (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 1 year ago by G4Z to c/unitedkingdom
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[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The headline makes it sound like they have engineering challenges that can't be overcome when actually the classification in this report tells us nothing new.

Here is a link to the report that they are referencing:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1171218/IPA-Annual-report-2022-2023.pdf

It summarizes about 150 projects in about 30 pages, so there is no specific rationale or analysis given for why each project receives the rating that they give it.

The description of the colour ratings says:

Annex A: Explanation of DCA colour ratings

The DCA is an evaluation from the IPA or the SRO of a project’s likelihood of achieving its aims and objectives, and doing so on time and on budget

...

Red: Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable. There are major issues with project definition, schedule, budget, quality and/or benefits delivery, which at this stage do not appear to be manageable or resolvable. The project may need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed.

The HS2 projects are already over-budget (as stated in the article), so it is clear that the likelihood of achieving them on budget is zero, which makes a Red rating inevitable, and not particularly newsworthy.

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I try not to be all doom and gloom, but this is the exact sort and scale of project the UK needs to be successfully completing to combat climate change. The fact we can't is legitimately terrifying.

[–] li10 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Stuff like this just makes me wonder what’s the point of working and contributing to the country.

Things like this and funding the NHS are what people need, yet apparently it can’t be done.

How can every single thing that benefits regular people be too expensive, what else is there to spend money on??

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

Best use of the money is to give it to the rich based on whoe governments are acting aroundthe world.

[–] sijt@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

It's not, so far as I can tell, saying that the project cannot be done. The Red rating, equivalent to unachievable, is measuring against the goals set for the project, including financial.

So what this is saying (or rather confirming) is that it's not achievable based on the current project goals. Or to put it another way, it's over budget and cannot be delivered within budget.

So yeah, still not great that we can't deliver something like this on budget, but if you look in to how it was originally costed for the business case there are holes in the logic large enough to drive several high speed trains through. Sideways. Hopefully the benefits are large enough that they still go through with it, but I suspect that's largely dependent on which narratives take hold during the run up to the next election and whether the Tories can gaslight people in to thinking that country finances work the same way as personal finances.

[–] YungOnions@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

That's not exactly the case, your second link even states that HS2 would offset (via modal shift) more carbon than it emits during construction.

That ofcourse isn't to say we should hand wave it away, construction is one of the worst industries when it comes to pollution. But, the problem is we will need to build things, because the structure of society needs to change to stop being so carbon dependant. If we do nothing, then we still have all the structural problems which caused the problem in the first place.

HS2 stops, some, people having to drive. Longer term, it would also help to move business concentration away from the south east. Decentralisation across the entire UK would mean that a lot more things are a lot more local to a lot more people. HS2 doesn't do that alone, but HS2-type projects (my original comment) absolutely do.

Even if you support degrowth as a method, that still requires substantial change, which in turn means construction.

[–] icerunner@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There is no way the government pull the plug at this stage. The only course is to shake that magic money tree and get it done at any cost. As usual.

[–] Hossenfeffer 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To get things back on track (heh, on track, see what I did there?), I anticipate some especially juicy contracts going to newly forged 'construction' companies set up by Tory donors.

[–] li10 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s the problem with estimating the cost of these projects, they never really take into account all the corruption and backhanders.

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Well it would be a bit sus but yeah at this point estimator should be done a few line items for corruption maybe at least we can start tracking it properly.

[–] Hogger85b@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They will cancel the bit to crewe and the East Midlands and Euston and call a train line from hounslow.to Birmingham as hs2 deliverd missing out on all the vital capacity upgrade to wcml, midland line and eastern that it would actually help.with

[–] FlyLikeAMouse 5 points 1 year ago

I’m shocked I tell you, shocked.

[–] mannycalavera 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Jaysus H Christ. Can we not build any new infrastructure?

[–] Syldon 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

With a government that literally could not organise a piss up in a brewery, the answer has to be no. They are just grifters conning the country out of money for themselves and anyone who will support them. Nothing else has any importance. The covid inquiry outcome will be very telling just how little these scumbags actually wanted to help the people they serve.

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People make real money on government contracking and it is a good place for corruption where state actors and private sector fleece tax payers. Boomers are getting extra greedy tho, back in the day at least they delivered something, half the to now project isn't even delivered or delivered without poor condition or not fit for the use case.

[–] Syldon 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Boomers ?? seriously you want to start a culture to defend this shitty government. Get over yourself you moron.

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just exposing pervasive culture of corruption the boomer generatetion shares.

Every time I see shady dealing, there are a few boomers making good money on it as they control most of the negotiation and leadership roles in government and private sector. They collude in their deals via this "culture"

It has always happened but the cut this generation is taking is border line highway robbery. It is getting our of hand.

I apologize my analysis triggered you but without calling spadr a spade we can't really move forward since at this point political process is captured and we have a massive social issue on our hands that requires a cultural change.

[–] Syldon 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The buses don't go where you come from my friend. You are a prime reason why we need a better education system in the UK. Go back home the village is missing their idiot.

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You appear to be hurt by another person having a different opinion from you online...

Got to learn to cope better ;)

[–] Syldon 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love a different opinion. Different opinions are what make you consider your own choices better.

I dislike idiotic generalisations with no foundations either in facts or substance. Your problem is not with people who got more than you, your problem is with the people who made life shit for the lower paid in this country. What people got prior to 2010 is what we all should still be getting now. The only reason you are not getting a good deal is because of choice of government over the last 14 years.

Rather than sounding off stupidly without any credible argument try voting for what you want from government, Join a union and be proactive by writing to your MP. Blaming someone else for your own issues will never solve them. This is something that you need to make an effort with.

[–] sadreality@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People in power and generation of bootlickers enabling them is the issue. I am sorry facts hurt ur feelings.

I am not in UK but y'all got the same degerate governing and business "leadership" running an extraction racket.

I am not sure why you are assuming I am having issues... my bigger concern is a culture of corruption that is wasting my taxes on cash transfers/tax rebates for the rich and so boomers got public health care while majority of the country living hand to mouth.

While y'all got the NHS, sounds like your boomer government is gutting that as we speak tho. I am sure private sector will save it tho like they fixed your rail travel.

4 decades of imbicile economic policy but nobody around to be blame?

[–] Syldon 1 points 1 year ago

Ok from your history you look like you are from the USA. Boomers did not screw your country, Capitalist greed did. That is corporations who are allowed to lobby your government by paying for study groups. The downfall in the US was in the 60's/70's, when the Democrats decided to take on some of them Corporate donations that the Republican had gained for years. I whole hearted agree that the US system is broken for anyone below the average wage. I really fear the UK will follow in that light. I see you mention that you would never vote for Rep or Dem. Again there I agree, they are both corrupted to the core. The way Biden destroyed the right to repair act in Minnesota was an absolute disgrace and just shows where his loyalties lies. I am a big fan of Bernie Sanders. I recommend his book highly.

Much of what has happened in the US is happening here. That is not boomers or any other generation. That is purely down to the greedy bastards who are robbing the country blind without any moral restrictions. The only plus I see out of our current situation is that the Tories did so without any restraint. The USA was the proverbial frog in the slow boil pot. You have never felt that shock of "shit what is going on!". Where as the UK is seeing everything all in one go. I sincerely hope it wakes enough up to what is going on. The only way you will ever beat your scumbags is by voting them out at every opportunity. And don't get tired of doing just that. As I said join a union. Groups of people have a lot more power than an individual.

Unfortunately the politicians in the US have the culture wars down to a tee. The worst is that people buy into them. The US has a greedy culture where everyone hates to see someone get more than what they get. Politicians play on that. Google crabs in a buckets analogy, because that is how you lot live your lives.

You will never get out of the swamp until you see that you must care for those less off than yourself. There will always be someone who screws the system to take advantage of that care when you do this. Accept that as part of life and move on. That does not mean you should not convict low life thieves with no morals. Just do not fall into the trap of stopping a much needed service in an attempt to stop theft. The Tories vilified benefit thieves so much here that people accepted massive drops in social care. The result is that we now have no safety net for those who really need it. Culture wars are there to divide the country so you are easier to manage. Calling boomers is falling for exactly that. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[–] mannycalavera 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The delay and spiralling cost seems to be a mixture of government failure, local issues, national anti HS2 campaigns, poor planning by the contractors building the thing.

What, in your opinion, could this government (or the next Labour government) do to enable 21st century transport infrastructure to be built across the country (north to south, and east to west)?

[–] Syldon 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The failure of this project is set purely at the heart of government and their steam roller ideology. They miss-read the feeling of the areas they wanted to bulldoze. I doubt any section of the line came in on budget. I would not be surprised if this was just another excuse to fund donors.

How could it be done better? Not waste money in other areas. Claw back that money lost through fraud that no one in government cares about. Take some good non political advice with a proper feasibility study.

I disagreed massively with the HS2 scheme. London has had enough money spent on it. The rest of the country could really use some good transport, and that does not need to be attached to London. This was just another of Johnson's vanity projects. And as we have seen with everything Johnson touches he care nothing about the cost to the tax payers.

Labour will do a better job with any projects they push forward, because the Murdoch media is a lot more critical in their reporting on non Tory governments. Everything is broken in this country now thanks to the current crew. It will be an uphill struggle to fix anything once they are gone. The thing I want to see fixed most is our FPTP voting system. I want to remove this dominance that the two parties have on this country. Johnson was bad, but it just as easily have been Corbyn. We need to remove the ease with which extremists can manipulate the system.

[–] mannycalavera 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The thing I want to see fixed most is our FPTP voting system. I want to remove this dominance that the two parties have on this country. Johnson was bad, but it just as easily have been Corbyn. We need to remove the ease with which extremists can manipulate the system.

100% agree with this. Not sure how PR in itself will build rail infrastructure 🤷 but I agree with the sentiment.

[–] Syldon 1 points 1 year ago

The rail affects a very small part of the country. Both parties have ignored it for decades.

I firmly believe that if we do not plug the gap in our voting system, then the next extremist group to gain power will be very much worse than what we see now. They will take what they have learned to abuse and expand on it. We may never have an election again after that without a civil war. I am not overly confident about Starmer, if I was being honest. He is being more than a little underhanded with the rank and file of the party. I get why he took on the Corbynites, especially with Corbyn being a thorn for his own agenda. But Starmer seems to have taken it upon himself to oust anyone with a different opinion. Removing opposing views is not a good thing for a party. That was exactly how Johnson ran his ship.

So yes the transport system is important. It generates cash for the country after all. I just don't view in the same light as others do.

[–] mondoman712@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

HS2 is the investment in local transport up and down the country that we need. The point isn't to get people to and from London faster and the fact that you think that is a failure of their marketing.

The point of HS2 is to move all of the longer distance services between the larger cities on to their own line, reducing the effect of mixed traffic and allowing for many more local and freight services on the existing lines. This then lets local councils massively improve their own local systems, such as the plan for a huge increase in transport in the East Midlands that can't happen since the eastern leg of HS2 was cut back.

[–] Syldon 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I live in the NE there is zero benefit for our area. No benefit for Scotland, Wales or Ireland come to think of it. I am all for spending on transport. I just think London has had enough in that area. HS2 is not about links to Manchester btw. It is about more links to London so people can commute from further afield.

[–] mondoman712@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Did you read my comment? It isn't about links to London. It's about capacity across the network, it just happens that the best way to create that capacity is to build new links to London, because then you can remove all of those fast moving intercity trains off of the existing network and just have the local and freight services that can then bunch up more closely together and run way more frequently. It does have benefits beyond where it runs, for example by releasing capacity in Birmingham New Street, we can run more frequent trains out to Aberystwyth. I'd argue that most of GB does benefit, by getting faster journey times and released capacity when they travel into areas that are affected, but even then, does every project need to benefit everyone? I'm all for more investment beyond the areas that directly benefit on top of this.

[–] Emperor 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What, in your opinion, could this government (or the next Labour government) do to enable 21st century transport infrastructure to be built across the country (north to south, and east to west)?

Go back to the drawing board - look at what we need.

A stronger E-W connection - we need one of those fancy drilling machines they buried after Crosstalk and it can dig road and rail tunnels through the Pennines east of Manchester (if you look on the map everything just peters out or has to go up and around). That gives quite and direct links through to the A1 and you can then have a high speed line between Hull and Liverpool (which will cut out a lot of freighter traffic having to go round).

It was always important that our high speed network connected with Europe's in order to cut flights but the end of HS2 comes into the wing side of London. You really want a high speed rail line down the east coast up to Edinburgh and across to Glasgow that continues on to the Channel Tunnel.

You could then put in other lines - Glasgow to Crewe to Birmingham to Bristol and the SW. Cardiff to London. If you must you could then link Birmingham to London but you are only shaving minutes off the journey at that point.

You then end up with a high speed east coast line, a west coast line and Scottish, north and south cross lines. Along with improved road links under the Pennines.

[–] mackwinston 1 points 1 year ago

We used to have a stronger E-W connection, the Woodhead line. It was even electrified before being finally closed, the track lifted, and the tunnels filled in.

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