this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2023
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Magazine dedicated to discussions about the kbin itself. Provide feedback, ask questions, suggest improvements, and engage in conversations related to the platform organization, policies, features, and community dynamics. ---- * Roadmap 2023 * m/kbinDevlog * m/kbinDesign

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I’m a Reddit refugee who was on that platform for 10+ years. I saw not just a tremendous amount of controversies, but attempts at introducing alternatives to Reddit during all of them. The 2015 blackout saw a ton of alternatives suggested, and if you go back and look at them many have either not survived or never achieved their stated goal of serving as a viable alternative to Reddit. Places like Voat, Ruqqus, or Parler promptly turned themselves into extremist shitholes and imploded. The truth is most internet communities which found and advertise themselves as an alternative to Reddit die.

However, I think this newest wave of searching for an alternative has more legs than I think I’ve ever seen, and the key to that is the kind of users who are moving. The people who were pissed off by the recent changes are the old guard of the internet. These are the people who still remember searching for and finding RIF, Apollo, or AlienBlue (before it was bought), and have the technical know-how to care about the quality and usability of their platform. I think you all are people who engage with their online spaces with intention, and because of that I believe that we have more of a shot at making this work than I’ve witnessed since I joined Reddit all those many years ago.

In order to make this all work out though, I think it’s really important to cast our thoughts toward what made the websites that have come before us successful. Every single one of these spaces have distinct ways of interaction that indirectly communicate their ideologies. Memes, in-jokes, and lingo form the backbone of online communities and help to direct users back to the source, but they never gain real purchase without a unique viewpoint. I’m pretty sure I can confidently suss out whether a meme comes from 4Chan, Reddit, or Tumblr, just through the message conveyed and the template used. For an online platform to have relevance and draw, I believe it absolutely needs to have an individual and communicable perspective.

Now I am aware that much of this is organically generated, but I think we underestimate how much of it isn’t. The structure of a website clearly communicates to users its core values, and users almost certainly respond to that. The fact that users are by default anonymous on the Chans absolutely contributes to the unique “flavor” of those websites, and the subreddit structure of Reddit allows it to contain a greater variety of clashing values. We can already see some of this on the Fediverse, the tension engendered by the federated instances I think places greater emphasis on building consensus. The fact that an entire server can be excised at will from a group of other like-minded server owners means that one has to always have an eye towards the common consensus, and I think we will see many fights over this in the not-so-distant future.

So as we go forward, and while we are in the most nascent part of this website’s lifespan, I think we should be discussing and commenting on what we think is most important about this space. I’m already seeing that people think that Kbin is “nicer than Reddit” and you’re more convinced that you’re interacting with real people. I think this is all good, and I think that while we’re making content, we need to have an eye on putting that particular spin on all the things we brought over from where we came from. Eventually, we need to get to the place where we’re creating unique meme formats, and having our own slang, but for right now we need to be thinking hard about what we want out of our online lives and how this website can be built to serve those purposes. I think the risk of not doing that, and forever being only a federated Reddit clone is going to leave people forever jonesing for the experiences they had on Reddit, and this space is going to die just like every other attempted alternative has before.

TLDR: Now that we've all left Reddit, for this new place to live my opinion is that we need to have more discussions about what our principles are, and we need to make unique content that brings people to this website.

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[–] Rabbithole@kbin.social 179 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

The truth is most internet communities which found and advertise themselves as an alternative to Reddit die.

To be honest, there were damn good reasons why Voat, etc, died in a massive fire. The Reddit exoduses in question were from huge chunks of the userbase effectively being kicked out for being massive bastards/racists/bigots, etc. The communities that they spawned after leaving were absolutely horrific and nobody else on the internet wanted to go anywhere near them.

The current exodus is made up of actually normal people (at least, normal enough), and the reason we're here isn't just because we're all joined by hatred (weeeelllll... maybe a hatred of u/Spez in a lot of cases, ha!), but because we're genuinely looking for a better forum-space than what's been available recently until now.

Sure, there are similarities, we're still here because we find corporate control over the forum-space to be "oppressive" (just what an incel/racist would say, right?), but it's not because our views aren't tolerated there, it's just because we're really fucking tired of the cost of having somewhere to actually discuss things is that we're endlessly sold as a product, followed by our discussion area being destroyed by corporate greed. Over and over again.

The reasons why this place is getting busy is fundamentally different than the reason why the previous migrations created places like Voat or Parler, etc. We're already in a massively better position due to that alone.

Eventually, we need to get to the place where we’re creating unique meme formats

I agree with what you're saying in general, but I really hope that all of the interesting discussion here doesn't eventually get buried by memes like back on Reddit. Memes can be fun and all, but sorting a lot of otherwise really great niche-subs by top of all time back there was often a case of finding nothing of value at all because there were 50 pages of fucking memes at the top of the list. Personal preference, of course.

[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah that's a fair point. For me it was the constant twitter screenshots/ tiktok reposts and repeated and shallow discussion of whatever bullshit fill in the blank political figure/ tech billionaire was doing that was killing the fun for me. I really think memes were more fun back in 2012-~2018 or so, mostly because there seemed to be more emphasis on novelty, but the endless soyjack reposts or dead tv show memes (cough the office) were definitely getting stale. I think it works better when memes are on hobby/niche subreddits because I think they invited discussion in the comments, but man are they useless on anything related to current events. Some subreddits did it really well though, places like noncredibledefense (that's the only one I can think of rn) really had a unique voice and were making new formats.

[–] Rabbithole@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I found that, for me at least, memes on reddit were generally a negative aspect in most subs focussed on discussion.

They worked really well though when you had the main sub basically ban memes, but spawn a secondary sub specifically for them.

You get the best of both worlds there, where people can either take them or leave them, and the main sub doesn't end up with a massive noise to signal problem.

[–] RheingoldRiver@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

+1 I really want this, separate communities for memes and for content. I really enjoy spending time scrolling through memes, and I want that to exist somewhere - but not in the same place as the actual content. I hope that becomes the standard here, and also that people start making more meme-focused communities, cos I haven't seen many yet.

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[–] reverendz@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@bttoddx

@Rabbithole

There was a fascinating point on fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu where it felt like a narrative type was getting created. New characters and kinds of story lines were popping up all over. It was kind of amazing.

[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

I have really fond memories of those old rage comics, they're part of what got me to make an account in the first place. I know they've grown corny as they've aged, but gee so have I. I think most places online can't really replicate the kind of communal rush to engage in the community, I think we've all grown a mite cynical.

[–] patchw3rk@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Rabbithole@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Well, don't I just feel all special now. :D

[–] OpenStars@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are fascinating thoughts relevant to this that could be explored when people have the technical capacity to catch up the software even just to the submissions that have already been made to the kbin software.

Like instead of just "top" and "hot" and "new" and such, there could be like "popular" vs. "niche", where niche is a different dimension of popularity. Otherwise, you get the same tired old cats & doggos that "we" (at least, as a community overall) really DO love to see, and that's...well you're never going to change people's minds, so good or bad, it simply is what it is, but it doesn't leave quite as much room to see anything ELSE that you ALSO want to see is the problem. But where there's a will there's a way!:-)

I posted something relevant in https://kbin.social/m/tech/t/113196/An-older-article-that-is-taking-on-new-significance-considering (also duplicating it in https://kbin.social/m/BestOf/t/113715/The-Ennui-Engine-or-how-chasing-short-term-gratification-drains-our) if you are interested. It's a wall of words but beautifully constructed imho, I couldn't put it down b/c it really piqued my interest precisely on what I was thinking. But one down-side to the approach that it suggests is that it depends on good-faith actors to always act in the best interests of the community, which lets face it, is never going to happen. So it's high time that we found some OTHER solution that may be practically more viable. Ironically, the magazine https://kbin.social/m/bestof really does look like one solution to that problem: it gathers the nuggets from across the site and places them there to be read. But it also requires far too much effort, compared to just clicking the equivalent of an upvote or boost button, to be able to rank content by popularity according to some other measure than just "cool meme bro".

I suppose you could also make an alt account, or even on your main, simply unsubscribe from every magazine like m/memes, or m/starwars, etc. By curating your experience, you can tailor it more to your liking. Although then if you visit those communities, you won't see any comments in those articles while still logged into that account, so it's kind-of a one-way ticket for it to disappear for you, not something that you can easily toggle back-and-forth depending on your mood, from one account.

[–] Sinnerman@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I suppose you could also make an alt account, or even on your main, simply unsubscribe from every magazine like m/memes, or m/starwars, etc. By curating your experience, you can tailor it more to your liking.

Wait, doesn't everybody do this? Currently, my lemmy account is my "meme" account and this, my kbin account, is my "discussion" account where I try to respond more thoughtfully to things. (but I do more "subscribing" than "unsubscribing")

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[–] ihavenopeopleskills@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

we're still here because we find corporate control over the forum-space to be "oppressive"

It's bad when any corporation does that to anyone, regardless of respective points of view.

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[–] Otome-chan@kbin.social 81 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I think we're at the point that we need to stop thinking of things as "ex-redditors" and now as "kbinauts". While it's true that many people have come here from reddit, it's not "people from reddit", it's "people on kbin".

One thing I've noticed about the fediverse is that different instances have different 'feels' to them, and I think kbin is uniquely positioned to emphasize this a bit, since kbin differentiates itself almost ironically as "not a lemmy instance". It pops up in so many threads of lemmy users discussing things, and then the random "oh this is a kbin thing".

In sharing communities, it's common to have a "for kbin users" link.

I see quite a few lemmy users differentiating themselves "as lemmy" as well. It's an interesting phenomenon.

ultimately I think you're right though. the sooner a proper culture can take root, and a particular "way of doing things" is cemented, the more likely it is that kbin will stick around.

[–] userjack6880@kbin.social 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m down for “kbinaut” being the term for users here.

[–] aeternum@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i like kbinaut. It's cute :)

[–] I_Miss_Daniel@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's a minor synergy between that and the reddit alien..

[–] 2d@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Ha! You put your finger on what I could not figure out what it was about this term that felt like it made a weird sort of sense!

[–] RemembertheApollo@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I suggest "Binners" for fun. Sounds trashy, lol.

[–] Teon@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I also prefer "Binners" because we have "binned" the other lame social media companies.
Also, trashy can be fun!!

[–] Sinnerman@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

On linux systems, the "bin" directory contains a large number of scripts and programs.

Sincerely,
Binnerman.

Ugh. You've started the horrible puns.

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[–] asteroidrainfall@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The whole phenomenon of Lemmy v. KBin will wind down as the “threadiverse” matures. Over on Mastodon you’ll occasionally see people clamoring over Calckey and how it’s better because of blank, but people just get over it. That’s the amazing appeal of the fediverse, if some other site has more features or better moderation you can just move there! I know many people who hop between instances, apps, and services just because they want to try new things.

I’m so excited because I know KBin will eventually get better federation, administration, and moderation features. We will soon we’ll be able to communicate and share with everyone on the fediverse.

[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You make me optimistic for the future of the fediverse! I'm also struck by how much discussion there is of instances, and how there's still a vibrant marketplace of ideas. It's pretty wild how much google has calcified the rest of the internet, and search has solidified the power of a few companies.

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[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah I think this is a good point. I'm still getting used to the interface, I wish there was a bit more salient of a way of discerning what is a kbin post on the all feed? I know I can look underneath the title of the post, but maybe having an icon (like whatever the logo ends up being) on the right side of the title might be a good idea to privilege kbin's posts for kbin users over lemmy's without exempting those posts from the feed?

[–] Otome-chan@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Get the kbin enhancement script and it'll extend all the names to include the host instance.

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[–] Sinnerman@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think we should be discussing and commenting on what we think is most important about this space.

One of the biggest tensions is going to be that as a community grows, it's going to attract the attention of (a) advertisers who will develop "organic marketing" campaigns, (b) political messaging campaigners for international as well as domestic concerns, and (c) "influencers" who want to market their brands. Each of these will use high-engagement ragebait and awwThatsAmazing-type posts. Reddit's r/all was full of these.

Kbin and lemmy seem nice and refreshing because a lot of those posts don't exist here yet. But if we continue to grow, they will show up. How will we handle this?

[–] asteroidrainfall@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

That’s one trend I hope doesn’t spring up over here. I hated the fact that 95% of the subs on /r/all were literally the same thing. Like, what was the difference between MadeMeSmile, DamnThatsInteresting, NextFuckingLevel? Just all the same clickbait trash, and then, as you say, some “organic” marketing campaign for the latest Marvel movie.

Edit:
Mastodon handles this by not having an algorithm. In order for a toot to gain traction, it actually needs to be boosted around so that people can see it. A great example of how this prevented “organic” marketing was with @Raspberry_Pi.

When they first joined, their SNS team tried the same easy brand tactics that they used on Twitter, trying to force engagement. It had the opposite effect, and the community backlash was fierce. They have since changed their messaging and become more genuine.

Since link aggregators usually need some kind of algorithm for a “front page,” I think the most important thing is to have it be transparent and static. No changing it every 4 months to increase engagement.

Most importantly, the community should also have a shared opinion on what kind of stuff they are okay with, and this can be more localized per instance.

[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think you're both spot on. What I hope is that by voicing this people can "get with the program" and not reward that kind of content. After all, we can still see downvotes on here ;).

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[–] RemembertheApollo@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Old guard... I was expecting further back than using AlienBlue before it was bought.

I suggest that there is, indeed, a facet of the old guard present. Those of us that remember what Reddit replaced, and it wasn't just Digg...it was all the other niche forums, usenet, webrings, and everything else that represented the early soul of the internet slowly faded due to costs or commercialization. Reddit replaced all of that, even the dirty underside of the internet, for quite a while. Then they came through with quarantines, and there was the whole Pao/Taylor event of 2015, and now this. Reddit corp has sold its soul to the modern commercial internet bandwagon, and the site already seems to have lost a lot of the user content that normally comes in with the shutdown of 3rd party apps.

lemmy/kbin is great. Already feels more open, content flow is there, and people are talking. Maybe we can get that old community web board/forum feel again. Way better, JMO.

[–] FixedFun@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Old forums are still alive, very much, they're just a lot more niche because you probably need a desktop computer to read them easily, but here are three examples:

[–] DoucheAsaurus@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The head-fi forums are still kicking too and they've been around like 20 years.

https://www.head-fi.org/forums/

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[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Yeah 😅 I'm not old enough to remember aol chat rooms, geocities websites, or limewire. It just felt like there was an element to the internet at the edge of my early experience that held so much promise and was so much more open, that seems to have largely gone away. I think a bunch of that has to do with the monopolization of power of so many of these companies, and how so much content is now only discoverable through them. Hopefully we're learning our lesson about the consequences of monopoly now.

Well-said! You are right on the money. The kinds of people Reddit upset are the ones who have the will, the motive and the know-how to build something better.

[–] Teon@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've been watching Lemmy since it was first announced. And it always seemed 'not quite right' to me. I am on Mastodon and Pixelfed, and now Misskey. Love all of them. Lemmy always felt... sketchy. But when I recently heard about Kbin, I was in immediately. This is a winning format and feels like the internet used to be.
There are things I would love here, like the option to mute or block, users or Magazines. Mastodon has that (mute users and block instances) right now and it's utterly amazing.
I would also like a better choice of themes (not a priority). And although the navigation is a learning curve, I would like it better organized.
I think Kbin will continue to be a very popular platform.
I'm honestly not fond of the name because I use KDE (Kubuntu), and everything in the KDE world starts with a K. I thought Kbin was a KDE development tool at first. LOL!!
Anyhow fellow "Binners", carry on!

[–] Joe091@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m on Kbin and a few Lemmy instances, and I’m curious as to your thoughts on what the functional differences are that make this a winning formula while Lemmy is not. It’s almost the same as Lemmy. Don’t get me wrong, I like it here, but I don’t get much of a different vibe between here and sh.itjust.works for example.

[–] Teon@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It just feels like a really cheap Wordpress template. I hate the UI, Kbin feels like a user designed it, Lemmy feels like a DOS user designed it. The main page feels like Google or DuckDuckGo search results, where Kbin feels like the placeholders for each Magazine are purposeful. And I really hate the name. I have a pet peeve about any company, organization, etc naming things after animals. Be more original (yes, Mastodon could have a better name). At least Kbin is unique.
Kbin feels more like the forums of yesteryear when web design was really taking off. And again Lemmy reminds me of a DOS forum with the way it's nested threads run together, it's harder to read through than Kbin. Not to mention that websites should take full advantage of screen real estate, which Kbin does on desktop.

I have nothing against Lemmy, I'm glad we have a ton of options in the Fediverse and encourage everyone to find what works for them. I am really digging the design of Misskey right now. I just have an instant dislike for the Lemmy interface, name and mascot.
It's just my opinion, everyone should find their own workflow.

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[–] Kichae@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

that brings people to this website.

These websites.*

Kbin isn't a website at all. Kbin is software that allows anyone to spin up a content aggregator website. It's what WordPress is for blogs or quasi-static websites.

Being federated means there will be hundreds, or even thousands, of independent kbin websites sharing content with one another.

Choosing a single set of values isn't going to work in this environment. Instead, value-compatible networks are going to form, and the vibe on different sites is going to end up being somewhat distinct to each site.

There will be a kbin for everyone.

[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Right, still getting used to the federated nature of it all. It's a bit strange calling it many websites though, a bunch of different instances that all have mostly the same copied base code that all talk to each other is a bit of a gray area, no? Since nothing is indexed for google, it also kind of reinforces that feeling, like a very dim web.

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[–] WhyPeople@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is definitely a sense of community here based on me lurking for about a week and the number of apps being developed, but at the moment I don't think any have done a great job at attracting ordinary people outside of reddit migrators. To be fair, this is a really difficult problem, and I'm not even sure if there is a good solution that wouldn't involve changing common terms about the fediverse works. Where it gets really weird is when federation allows me to interact with Mastodon content on a completely separate platform, and I can't imagine an average user just understanding that immediately.

Of course, this also involves a change in some UX patterns in existing apps. For instance, I have to hit the "Add comment" button on Kbin in order to see how this comment will look in reality. While this editor that I'm typing in has the ability to bold text, it just wraps what I'm typing in the actual bold markdown tag. This is fine for technical users, but to an ordinary person this doesn't make any sense, especially when other apps already give you a WYSIWYG experience. Granted, this of course is not an easy thing to implement either, but I think it's necessary for winning over non-technical users.

Right now, it feels like a lot of apps (at least on iOS) are creating an "Apollo for Lemmy/Kbin" type of experience, and that's great in its own right as all of these apps feel very intuitive considering the platform's age. However, especially with Kbin's microblogging feature in mind, we should try to differ from Apollo while still using aspects of it like its swipe actions and the amount of customization it gives. Otherwise we inherit many of Apollo's flaws (that may be even worse on fundamentally different platform), which is what led to others using apps like Narwhal or even the official Reddit app.

TLDR: In general the initial direction seems good (especially with the many good apps being developed), but the next biggest hurdle is becoming mainstream and that requires intuitive UIs to attract ordinary people. We don't get good and diverse content otherwise.

[–] flicker@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm an older person, and I have a question, genuinely. As long as we have enough content generating, involved persons in the federation... do we truly need to worry about mass appeal? Or about attracting the "average" user?

I remember extremely pleasant, active IRC channels, and chat rooms on AOL with less than fifteen people that were engaging and enjoyable. As long as the people here are active, quality people, does it truly matter if we can appeal to the average? To put it another way, why try and attract the lowest common denominator if what we want is to avoid the pitfalls that come with them (the low quality comments, the mindless repetition of select in-jokes designed to make the reader engage mindlessly)?

I'm enjoying the vibe here. I mean, I read your entire comment. And then posted this one! Effort is happening! It feels almost like the lawless wild west that the internet once was! I'm not in a rush to lose this in the name of pumping up the number of users, when the only benefit of doing so seems to be a collective lowering of our quality.

[–] HandsHurtLoL@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

To answer your question here, yes - some of us are looking for non-techy people to join.

Rigorous conversation aside, I have hobbies in knitting and crochet that are not populated by folks who want cumbersome UX. Kbin is fine for me because I joined reddit back in the day before its redesign, but I can imagine someone much younger than me who probably spent all their formative years on Facebook coming here, finding this all too stripped down and clunky, then bailing. Or they might be unable to see how much of a "one stop shop" an instance like kbin could be for them because the concepts and terminology for a federated internet are too lofty.

Am I making a case for idiots to come on board? No. But I am saying that some folks who could otherwise be active, quality users here won't take to kbin like a duck to water.

I don't want kbin to lose its old.reddit-like vibe. I don't want the Fediverse to be completely inundated by ads, influencers, stealth marketing, and constant reposts. But I miss having my specific communities, and this is going to be a real challenge to bring in non-techy users. Even if to just provide more balance for let's say feminist or queer issues. Why would newcomers here ever stay if the experience is too close to walking through numerous conversations at Tech Crunch? or a Warhammer 40K convention? or Comicon?

[–] Klawn@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, i’m here since the black-out, and i’m pretty sure that peoples who come and stay here are more than lambda people browsing internet. It takes some times to be used to it and most peoples don’t take/have that time.

I see it with a lot of my friends and family, they just don’t give a shit about what they do or how they use internet. I was the nerd guy when people use to call me a geek as a slur, when it was weird to find love online. Now i’m the only one in my circle who take the time to refuse all the cookies when i come to a website (thanks RPGD), i’m pissed if i have to Watch an ad just to see a video from YT, etc. because i care about how i use internet and what trace i left behind me. But for Mr/Ms everybody, these kind of things are normal, because they were not surfing the web when all of this didn’t exist.

I agree with what you said but i’m also pretty sure that we are now loosing the battle with big corporate and people who are used to these kind of manners, because we, the « old guard », are a minority now. It’s sad.

I hope kbin develop itself like i used to dream the web back 25 years ago, a big sharing place where there is no place to greed and corporate marketing. And i really hope that the difficulty to aprehend the fediverse keep us far away from what i’ve cited.

I’m really excited about what kbin will became and i agree that we need to build something that is not like the old social media. Something more like the spirit of phpbb board communities back in the days…

Sorry if my english isn’t perfect, i’ve learned it essentially through my 25 years old journey here on the web.

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Yeah he said "old guard" and then followed it up with "searching for apps" lol. We were on reddit before apps even existed.

[–] Usernameblankface@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have been trying to work out how to write a post like yours for a while, but I don't have the insight or experience to make it nearly as good. So thank you for putting this out there.

Many of the differences are what makes this place great. The tension that leads to seeking the common ground. The threat of being disconnected that keeps things civil even when there are disagreements. The way memes are enjoyed but as a side. The distinct lack of monetization.

Some of the "faults" that newcomers complain about are important features that align with the core beliefs this place is built on. Some are unfortunate side effects that aren't going away as long as the values stay the same. Some are just issues that someone meant to get around to but for whatever reason they haven't yet.

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[–] DreamyDolphin@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I feel like there's a bit of cart-before-the-horse thinking here; as you acknowledge, a lot of it is organic. What makes a social site like this is the people, and specifically, the dynamic/active people who become the hubs of content or who are known characters - for instance, shittymorph (with their incredible talent for weaving fabrications before the inevitable twist) or poem_for_your_sprog who had a natural flair for both poetry and snark. Without individuals with personality, a place just becomes a noticeboard for the posting of memes or information, driven by algorithmic calculation rather than human spark. The downside is that one can never really create such a place from the ground up (hence the collapse of GooglePlus). It emerges over time from the cascading actions and interactions of diverse individuals who come and go over time.

We can certainly set standards and rules and metrics, but to actually ensure community survives and flourishes is an unknowable alchemy. Anyone can say "this will be our official meme format", but whether it takes off or is replaced by one throwaway line from a random person can only be known after the fact. All we can really do is post and interact and try to be the people who would live in a constructive community.

[–] bttoddx@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Yeah I agree with most of what you're getting at, but I think its a bit less of an unknowable alchemy than you're saying. I don't think any of the users you mentioned would have devoted their time to making their website better if they didn't fundamentally trust the website or the community they're catering to. That trust is built by transparency by those making the website, and clear articulation by the userbase about what, and specifically why they want to see features. We now know what happens when administrators fundamentally violate that contract, and it honestly felt like a betrayal when Reddit did it. We have a role to play in helping to make a place successful, and informing a set of values by which future admins can evaluate whether or not something is good idea, and hopefully not have ulterior profit motives :).

[–] Hanabie@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

An old internet saying is "if it's free, you're the product", and that's exactly the problem platforms like reddit are currently encountering. Users leave, delete their old posts, and move elsewhere.

It's also a problem Lemmy/kbin see, from the other side: you need a critical mass of users to generate enough content to keep running and attracting and keeping users.

Given enough time, the corps will just continue going down the drain, since they're 100% profit-driven, and short-term gains over long-term sustainability. We here just have to keep going, and preferably in a way that minimizes drama. If one of the big 5 shits the bed and takes a lot of communities with it, the now homeless users might be hesitant to just join somewhere else, at least partially.

That's why I found it very unfortunate that beehaw defederated from .world and .works -- it also happened at a very bad point in time, in the middle of a boom.

If the platform matures enough, and the userbase is stable, it will most certainly grow over time, as the corpo options get worse and worse over time.

We also have to be vigilant and isolate all bad actors immediately. The extremist instances, like lemmygrad and exploding-heads, and the corporate assimilators, like Meta. Else people will not join here, either because we have a bad rep, or because we just get swallowed and spit out again by a tech giant.

I believe a "unique identity" will develop organically, given enough time.

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