this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2023
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44
Protests broke Reddit hack for useful Google search results—and Google knows it (arstechnica.com)
submitted 1 year ago by BrikoX@vlemmy.net to c/news@beehaw.org
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cross-posted from: https://vlemmy.net/post/317922

Alternate title: Google admits Reddit protests make it harder to find helpful search results

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[–] OneRedFox@beehaw.org 23 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Search engines have been becoming increasingly useless for years at this point as SEO gentrification runs rampant and more content moves behind walled gardens like Discord and anything that requires a subscription. Not to mention that Google enshittifies just like everything else. The amount of overly verbose garbage I have to trek through just to not get an answer to my query is far too high. God fucking help us now that AI can generate content, which will be even more garbage to sift through.

[–] Thndrchld@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You know, that was a good article until the author took a completely unnecessary and irrelevant swipe at Biden; at which point I completely lost interest in anything the author had to say.

I'm really fucking tired of political bullshit being embedded into every-goddamned-thing I read.

[–] OneRedFox@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

You know, that was a good article until the author took a completely unnecessary and irrelevant swipe at Biden; at which point I completely lost interest in anything the author had to say.

It was good during and after that part too.

I’m really fucking tired of political bullshit being embedded into every-goddamned-thing I read.

lmao. You are in a thread about a protest and its consequences reading an article from a socialist magazine about capitalism and its detrimental effects on search engines. You are very clearly not tired of reading about politics, but instead are just upset that your guy got off-handedly dunked on. It was an extremely small portion of the article. Get over it dude.

[–] StrayCatFrump@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Thank goodness someone is here to defend the reactionary fuck who was literally creating a Disinformation Governance Board as part of the ever-expanding police state and its fascist DHS organization. /s

[–] Thndrchld@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh boo hoo. I would have bitched if it was a completely-out-of-place swipe at any politician, even ones I hate. I would have bitched just as much if it was an anti-trump joke. It was irrelevant and obnoxious, shitty, opportunistic writing.

I don’t give fuck one about Biden, but I do give fuck one about journalistic integrity, which the author seems to lack.

[–] StrayCatFrump@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Some have suggested that the lack of Google alumni on the transition team of president-elect Joe Biden, a noted sex pest, might bode well for a crackdown, though the presence of veterans from other tech giants like Amazon and Uber suggests otherwise

a completely-out-of-place swipe

Ah. I see you think that reminders that the man in the most powerful position in the world is an actual fucking rapist are totally irrelevant...while that guy is currently helping to dictate what people may and may not see on the Internet. What could go wrong with a rapist deciding to further marginalize rape victims by making them even more invisible?

Brilliant!

[–] StrayCatFrump@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When Google first started making a name for itself, it actually returned links to shit where the content literally had the search terms in the visible text. Ah, the good ol' days before the fuckin' search engine decided it was smarter than its users.

[–] OneRedFox@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago

Sometimes it just straight up ignores my search modifiers to send me shit. I know the tech illiterate need their hands held, but bruh.

[–] Leafeytea@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Agree. I also feel like the monetization behind use of Google tools, user information, etc just further complicates it.

I think back on when the internet was first getting started and how everyone was so excited by the prospect of have an essentially "living library" at their fingertips, full of potential to share information and learn in what was perceived by many to be a more open source type model

initially. It didn't take long to see it succumb to all the same practices that have plagued free exchange of ideas in the real world since forever.

Add to this the stand by the "free press" of the world, which is no longer free, bent as they are with guarding information access behind paywalls since they continue to decry loss of paper readership and revenue from it as the reason for doing this; that may be true in part but it's only a fraction of the issues at stake.

[–] OneRedFox@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

I remember using the internet before smartphones were ubiquitous. At the time, I was thinking that we would be entering a period of unprecedented enlightenment with all the easy access to all the information a person could want. Lol. Lmao.

[–] RandoCalrandian@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We need the AI to sift through the garbage, so we don’t have to

[–] termus@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

It feels like AI wrote it already. Try googling a windows error now. Instead of getting forums or a blog you get 10 shitty websites with lists of generic fixes that end with them recommending their shitty software that will absolutely not fix your issue.

[–] withersailor@aussie.zone 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

“Many of you may wonder how we have a search team that’s iterating and building all this new stuff and yet somehow, users are still not quite happy,” Raghavan reportedly said.

Their search has been getting worse and worse for a long time before the Reddit protest.

[–] Bozicus@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"Many of us may wonder," yep. Some of us are pretty sure it's because Google is now optimizing searches for profitability rather than relevance. They're very careful to avoid fully explaining how the algorithm arranges search results, but I think the algorithm now has more financial subroutines than software behind it.

[–] cavemeat@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You know, that makes me wonder if someone could figure out the old google search algorithm, and use it to make a new, more useful search engine.

[–] jarfil@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

IIRC PageRank was patented, so it's public, and at this point the patent is surely expired.

[–] Raeyin@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

A lot of the cost is data storage. Unfortunately, I doubt any party will replace old Google.

[–] neamhsplach@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I recently googled "grass" to find out more about different species and the results were all trying to sell me grass.

Grass.

Where I live it's as common as dirt. I wonder how many people Google the word "grass" with zero qualifiers when trying to BUY grass.

Ffs

[–] Raeyin@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

This made me curious. A while back, I decided that I'd had enough with lousy results. I started trying different search engines, and I landed on DuckDuckGo.

After reading your comment, I went and searched the same term, grass. At the top, it showed a short section of 'products' and one ad. The next result was a store, then Britannica's article on grass. Fourth result was Wikipedia.

I figure that a 'products' link and one ad, clearly labeled, is reasonable. After all, the search engine is free.

[–] Bozicus@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago

"But have you considered special-edition artisanal grass? Guaranteed to impress your neighbors! Practically mows itself! Thrives on zero water! [in small print: made of 100% high grade polypropylene filaments, not suitable for hot climates]." [/s]

For that kind of research, I usually go to Wikipedia, pick a random technical term for the topic I'm looking for, and add that. It doesn't always work, but it does eliminate some of the sales sites. But it shouldn't be necessary, sigh.

[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ironically, reddit's search feature was also trash. If I wanted to find something on reddit I just went to google and appended "reddit".

[–] SevYote@pawb.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

IIRC, they cited google as a reason not to work on their own search, since that's what most of their userbase had got used to searching reddit with anyway by that point.

[–] jarfil@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Reddit also cited 3rd party apps, bots and extensions as a reason to not develop many of the features on their own... and here we are now.

[–] along_the_road@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can't trust a single thing that pops up on google because everything is auto generated blog spam

And regarding reddit, moderation keeps reddit at a good quality but if reddit takes away moderators tools and introduces more instructive ads it will become low quality and untrustworthy as well

[–] jarfil@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Some Reddit posts are already at an all time low in quality. Places like r/worldnews, r/technology or ELI5, where you used to find "at least" a couple decent comments, have already seen top posts with 0 useful top comments... and I've looked through all of them out of morbid curiosity, but no, not a single one.

[–] HeapOfDogs@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Google as a search engine is more or less dead. I was only really using Google to search reddit. Now that I'm done with reddit... There goes Google.

[–] TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Google removing the "do no evil" from their ethos was a very clear indication of the direction they were heading.

[–] cnnrduncan@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

"Don't be evil" is still in Google's Code of Conduct, it's just been at the end of the document rather than the start since 2018.

Google did evil shit before and after the change, it's not quite the big deal that some people make it out to be!

[–] cnnrduncan@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

"Don't be evil" is still in Google's Code of Conduct, it's just been at the end of the document rather than the start since 2018.

[–] tko@tkohhh.social 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

What's your preferred alternative? I use DuckDuckGo, and it's... OK. I still often switch over to Google when I'm having a hard time finding relevant results on DDG.

[–] MrComradeTaco@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Presearch

[–] 601error@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

Checked it out, stopped reading at “blockchain”.

[–] jarfil@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

SearXNG. It's a meta-search aggregator, you can use any public instance (the config is all in-browser) or host your own for kind of extra privacy.

[–] Raeyin@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It seems to depend on the type of search. For ordinary information, I'm using DuckDuckGo. For shopping, I go to Google, but the results aren't great. I'm undecided for serious research.

[–] SoulKeeper@mastodon.social 2 points 1 year ago

@Raeyin Try Startpage

[–] exscape@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What are you using now?

[–] RandoCalrandian@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

DuckDuckGo

[–] Bozicus@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago

I think it's a bold move for Google to present Perspectives as a new feature to improve user experience when really, it just makes it easier for them to present sponsored content in different formats. Astroturfed advertisments (fake "ordinary customer reviews," usually) have been a thing on social media for ages, especially on YouTube, and Perspectives is just giving Google a creative way to get eyeballs on those ads.

Using the Reddit implosion as a jumping off point is also clever, and I think it's evidence that Google doesn't plan on paying for API access next month, or ever. They don't want to take advantage of Reddit's data, they just want to take back the eyeballs that Reddit attracts.

(... not that Reddit was ever immune to astroturfing, of course, but I think strong community moderation made it better than YouTube, which doesn't give users much opportunity to get rid of fake reviews. Now that they have chased off a lot of mods and nerfed their tools, I expect the authenticity of Reddit product reviews to decrease dramatically).

[–] twitterfluechtling@lemmy.pathoris.de 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The article starts with absolute non-news: To get results on reddit.com you should addd site:reddit.com to your search, not just Reddit.

Unfortunately, I think this is a disadvantage of the Fediverse when it comes to search: The "site:" operator won't work when searching for topics discussed e.g. on Lemmy since there is no common, general domain name.

Maybe that would be a great next step for a search-engine provider to be better: Add a new, flexible operator, like scope, and index the data of the fediverse or other distributed services for search. E.g. DIY Esp8266 camera activator scope:fediverse, scope:lemmy or maybe scope:diaspora

[–] can@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

I never bothered with that. All my results were from reddit.com anyway with just appending reddit to the end. Even Bing chat would add reddit to the end of search for you without asking.

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

he “site:” operator won’t work when searching for topics discussed e.g. on Lemmy since there is no common, general domain name.

Agreed, that's the problem.

Maybe that would be a great next step for a search-engine provider to be better: Add a new, flexible operator, like scope, and index the data of the fediverse or other distributed services for search.

Also agreed, that would be a solution. I'm doubtful wether they deem a particular network important enough to justify the extra effort on their part.

Is it possible to pipe search queries through a website? If yes, then let's make a fedi-search! In which you can find any publicly available fediverse content.

Would it then be possible to google for site:fedi-search?

[–] Powderhorn@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

The cynic in me sees a symbiotic relationship between Google and Reddit.

I started messing around on Reddit around 2007, but it felt like a firehose. Google's results covered what I was looking for to the extent that I didn't need a second source for most searches, and my job involved reading the AP wire, so I was decently covered on news with additional RSS feeds at home.

Fast forward a few years, and I'm noticing the pattern that most genuinely helpful information is coming from Reddit (as well as no longer being in a newsroom), so I join, and the experience is far better with subreddits (sorry, hipsters). It wasn't yet readily apparent that Reddit was not only getting better at being comprehensive, but Google was also getting worse.

In the late beforetimes, maybe 2019, Google became useful for searching Reddit and finding product information for items I already knew about. And nothing else. Even with coding questions, there are a lot of red herrings. Without Reddit results, I'd have noticed Google's search irrelevance far earlier.

[–] SevYote@pawb.social 1 points 1 year ago

Too late. On the advice of another Lemmy thread, I started trying Kagi a couple weeks ago, for exactly this reason. I highly doubt I'll come back; it's been working great for me, and given how important search is to me both personally and professionally, it's easily, easily worth the price.