this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2025
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Taps the sign... (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
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[–] Apytele@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

I remember one time I'd been doing yard work and had my hair wrapped up to keep dirt and some sweat out of it. I got in the car and went off to my (now) ex's house. The road ran past that country ass courthouse in the northern part of the county and I got pulled over just in front of it after going through a stoplight that I'd been stopped at so I couldn't possibly have been speeding. I was like 20 with the life experience of a fundie kid who was discouraged from leaving the house until 18 and stupid as FUCK and for some stupid fucking reason thought it would be cute and / or funny to lean out the drivers window and yell "what could I possibly have done???" The officer literally started stuttering and apologizing and told me "you just went around the corner a little too fast sorry maam drive safe" and got back in his car and sped off. I was so confused. Later it occurred to me that he suddenly realized I was white (I was also really cute to the extent that I'm kind of enjoying the reduction in attention now I've gotten older).

When I tell this story to other white people I say that I don't think I should've gotten my ass beat and honestly I probably shouldn't have gotten pulled over. But I was also being a little bit of a 20 year old little shit. And the moral of the story is that I think everybody should have the right to be a 20 year old li'l shit (just a little, obvs. There's limits). There are so many times in my life that I have just gotten through by sheer luck because someone gave me the benefit of the doubt. Somebody looked at me and saw a dumb kid fucking up and said,"look, that was kinda shitty of you, here's how you're supposed to handle that." It's literally saved my life multiple times over. I got my ass beat by the cops during a mental health crisis where somebody who wasn't some cute little white chick would've just got shot. I would not be living the life I'm living now if people hadn't been so kind to me (or at least gone easier on me than they might've otherwise).

And honestly I just think everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt at least most of the time. And it's not being ungrateful for what I have to say that (because that's usually how this conversation comes up). In fact, I think a lot of people are really ungrateful for how many times in their lives that someone looked at them and saw someone who needed help when something as small as a darker shade of skin could've meant they saw someone malicious.

Anyway that's my soapbox.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.ca 5 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I really like the moral argument that everyone should be treated like a cute little white girl. It's perhaps a little sad to see that it's the straightest line between two points, so to speak.

[–] Apytele@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Yeah. I know my audience. I've got a couple of innate qualities that kind of person listens to (although I actually got rid of the couple you're probably thinking of) and when you phrase it as humility and gratitude sometimes you can activate that little shred of goodness they learned in Sunday School at eight years old.

[–] Black616Angel@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 7 hours ago

Hearing it like that makes it even sadder, because it shows in an easy way that people discriminate against each other without even being good off themselves.

[–] Aphelion@lemm.ee 15 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

And none of that holds a candle to privalige of being rich.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

I mean, you've got the OJ paradox.

Did he get away with murder by throwing money at an army of top lawyers? Absolutely.

Did he get singled out by the LAPD and dragged through what was supposed to be a kangaroo court run by literal Hitler worshipping fascists? Also Absolutely.

Wealth doesn't completely immunize you against bigotry, particularly from the vile views of other richer people.

[–] Godnroc@lemmy.world 76 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It seems more accurate to say "... people aren't using it to make your life worse."

Being yourself isn't a problem unless someone else decides to make it one.

[–] tiramichu@lemm.ee 6 points 23 hours ago

True mostly, although some things may occur regardless of how other people treat you, like feelings of dysphoria from being transgender, since it's based on your own perception of yourself.

Of course, other people can certainly make it even worse.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 52 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I'm not sure "privilage" is the right term in this scenario. For me, the term "privilage" would be more fitting to describe rich people.

I know you have good intent, but if we go around calling straight white cisgender men "privilaged", that's just fueling the "culture war" when we really should be focusing on the class war.

[–] RoidingOldMan@lemmy.world 7 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

I agree with all of the ideas in this meme, but I've never been a fan of this wording. "Privilege" in particular. To flip the wording, I'd rather it be "the minority handicap" or something. It almost seems like it's calling out straight white men as the enemy of these ideas. If straight white men are the problem, then seems like that's the group you'd be trying to convince. Yet this wording seems to alienate them more.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

To flip the wording, I’d rather it be “the minority handicap” or something.

Societal debuffs.

[–] Lightor@lemmy.world 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

That was my thought. If my race isn't making it worse it seems like that should be the standard. It's more like a non-white disadvantage, which I admit doesn't roll of the tongue as well.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Maybe "Minority Oppression"?

[–] Lightor@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

I suppose, I've always felt weird about minority as the term to use just because it doesn't work on all levels. Like I've been the minority in areas I've lived in. I get I'm still in the majority nation wide, but it's not how you feel every day. I dunno, I'm probably reading way too into it.

[–] Lennard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 7 hours ago

I agree. Privilege definitely exist, but it's kind of a burned word. If you call someone privileged, you've made sure, that the person gets defensive and will not think about in any way.

I think it's more accurate to speak of resources. Everyone has some of them, but other people don't. Inherited money, having good relationships to your parents, having a stable upbringing, living in a good neighborhood and not being homeless, being perceived as competent, being physically or mentally healthy, are all valuable resources and everyone should try to see what resources they benefit from, where others can't. Sadly prejudice and racism/sexism/... exists, so your skin color is also a resource, making it easier to be perceived as trustworthy/competent/... which is a huge benefit.

[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (9 children)

Social privilege is 100% a thing. You can bet that the fact that a white person doesn't receive subconsciously ingrained doubt and xenophobia from literally everyone else pretty much ensures that a white person will be subconsciously favoured. (edit:) this doesn't mean that they will necessarily receive a cornucopia of riches, but it pretty much guarantees that they'll be first pick for the football team, so to speak.

Same goes for Maleness™ and Cis-ness (?), they are perceived as defaults, as standards. It also applies in the neurotypical-neurodivergent face-off.

In short, as long as there is any kind of "other" and one is not perceived as part of it, one is intrinsically privileged.

(edit 2:) And the only thing which trumps social privilege is money.

[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 5 points 8 hours ago

Absolutely there is social privilege, and Im sure white trash living in a trailer park are loving their social privilege of being shit on by everyone and assisted by no one.

[–] Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world 6 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

This kind of shit is why the left keeps driving people away and is losing. This used to be called discrimination. It was easy to understand and uncontroversial. So of course the left had to reframe the issue, play stupid word games and try to alienate as many people as possible.

[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 0 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

If you want to talk about word games, you should probably look up the history of the term itself. You might be surprised at how old it is and who used it more than half a century ago.

I don't think there is any issue reframing. Rather, I think you're trying to reframe the issue because you don't want to recognize that white privilege and discrimination are different things. To be more precise, we are talking about racism, not discrimination in general. And precision matters, because when we use these kinds of words to talk about systemic problems, we're trying to describe things accurately and as simply as we reasonably can.

So then it comes back to the standard question. Why don't you like the expression? That's always the delicate point, isn't it? A lot of white people don't want to admit that they were lucky when they got that skin color. Part of that is pride, of course. And that's natural, but it doesn't mean it's good. And then part of it is plain old racism...

In the end, I agree with you: racist assholes definitely drift away from the left. Good.

[–] Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

I'm well aware of the history. You know who isn't? The 90+% of the population who don't consider themselves leftists or progressive. If you have to tell them, ”It's not as bad as it initially sounds, let me spend several paragraphs explaining”, then you have already lost them. If they don't know the precise academic definition and read something like "even homeless white people are privileged", they're going to think you're insane. Why give yourself that handicap when you can just choose different words to convey the same ideas?

If you want to prioritize feeling superior, go for it. Just don't be surprised when the left continues to be impotent and ignored.

[–] Smokeydope@lemmy.world 13 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

I was born in a very poor section 8 district right outside of Philadelphia city. My parents were neglectful and abusive, so I went outside and roamed the town alone as a small child. I was beaten senseless multiple times by fellow kids. I asked them why and their reply was always because of the color of my skin and that their parents told them to hate my kind. Eventually I stopped trying to go outside or make friends because I was socially ostracized everywhere I went.

Nobody wants to hear about my traumatic experiences with racism or xenophobia that lead to long term damage to my social skills, or upbringing in a broken home never experiencing an ounce of love, or living with extreme poverty having to work for every scrap. Im white so it doesn't fit their narrative. My experiences are automatically invalid because of the color of my skin. Its socially acceptable to hate on white people because we 'deserve it'. All of us must be so privileged, come from middle or upper classes, never experiencing an ounce of suffering for the color of our skin or if we do its fair and deserved.

Many people don't want equality or peace for all, what many really want is vengeance and retribution for themselves even if it perpetuates the cycle of hatred. They want to be the new protected class.

[–] essell@lemmy.world 35 points 1 day ago (19 children)

The question is whether privilege is the right word for this.

Privilege kinda describes something above what's deserved or something unearned.

You're describing basic human decency I think which everyone deserves

[–] JokklMaster@lemmy.world 15 points 23 hours ago

I have been arguing this for years now and all I get is the "bUt tHeY're BEtTeR oFf sO ThEy arE prIviLeGeD"

OK, and look at all the people you're calling "privileged" who don't agree with you because of your characterization of them. If changing the word gets them on your side isn't that worth it?

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[–] forrgott@lemm.ee 8 points 1 day ago

For the ones who love without such "privilege", I'm sure the word fits just fine.

But I think I get where you're coming from. Whether the dictionary definition applies or not, some words just wreck havoc with effective communication. And the larger the group of people, the worse this effect will be.

Unfortunately, that's probably by design...

[–] johsny@lemmy.world 0 points 8 hours ago

I got all three of these, lucky me.

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 22 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

This is a motte-and-bailey argument, in which one term has two definitions. You have the definition in the OP which gets brought out whenever someone argues against the idea of "privilege". It's designed to be hard to disagree with and so it just states the obvious. However, it's not the definition that people who talk about privilege actually use in any other context. Otherwise why would they talk about dismantling privilege? Or refuse to talk about the privilege of of anyone except straight/white/cis people (usually men)?

I don't like it when people make a controversial claim and then pretend that they aren't doing that if anyone challenges them, rather than defending the claim.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 5 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

This is really the only definition I’m aware of. What do you imagine these other people mean then?

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 6 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (2 children)

I think that in other contexts, they present privilege as a property of groups rather than of individuals. So, for example, white people as a whole have white privilege and so any particular white person has it because of his race, not because of anything he personally has or has not experienced.

They also present it as something that the privileged groups have unfairly, at the expense of other groups. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." If privilege is simply the state of not having your life made worse, why would it feel different from equality? Why would anyone want to dismantle it?

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 5 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

I don’t really understand how these ideas are in conflict with the meme here. You could be living a perfect life in a material sense but still be miserable if you are clinically depressed.

Privilege takes many forms. Some are just not being subject to oppression or violence that these other groups face, but some can also be benefiting from the oppression of those groups.

For example, having class privilege can mean benefiting from cheap labor to fulfill your desires. If a billionaire was deprived of all or most of the labor of the people who support their lavish lifestyle, I have to imagine this could cause them considerable distress, at least temporarily. In that case, I think it’s fairly easy to see how equality could feel like oppression.

Another example is that some people just like having a higher social status in society. It feels natural and empowering for them to be “above” other people in some sense. When this is upended, it feels bad.

But again, none of this implies that these people are living good lives in the current system. It just means they either benefit from it or aren’t harmed by it in some way, small or large. For most people, I think the benefits are small and may even be outweighed by other benefits they would receive in a more equal society. But there are those who would lose more, and they tend to be the loudest opponents of equality. They also tend to be wealthy and influential in the media and they influence many other people to adopt their viewpoints, even when those viewpoints aren’t in those people’s best interests.

All that said, this seems to be a common and recurring issue, so it may be that the concept of privilege needs reframing to avoid triggering people who don’t understand what it means. I am open to suggestions but we also need to be careful not to minimize or erase the struggles of oppressed people in our language.

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