this post was submitted on 08 Dec 2024

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626

The Ljungavik Dog: A Mesolithic dog burial (mander.xyz)

submitted 2 weeks ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to c/science_memes@mander.xyz

45 comments fedilink hide all child comments

https://arkeologerna-com.translate.goog/bloggar/benbloggen/ljungavikshunden-en-mesolitisk-hundbegravning/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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[–] Drusas@fedia.io 62 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

Before somebody says that we don't deserve dogs, please just don't.

We do deserve them. We basically made them and they love us and we love them.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 53 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

I'd even argue that, despite not being accurate, human-dog existence is symbiotic. We're better with each other than the sum of us as individuals. Yeah, not every dog is good with humans, and some humans shouldn't be allowed near any animal, but on average, a human and a dog together is the most perfect pairing of two different species on the planet.

[–] MalReynolds@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 weeks ago

Very much agree, evolution or no. Sometimes it's just right.

[–] Drusas@fedia.io 7 points 2 weeks ago

Agreed completely.

[+] ryedaft@sh.itjust.works -8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

That's not because of a chill and nice process though. It's because our ancestors would put down any domestic animal that was unhelpful or annoying. Cats bringing us offerings of mice and other small animals is not because they are homicidal maniacs but because at one point a cat started doing that and the cats that didn't were killed.

[–] nomous@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

That's not at all how natural selection works. Successful traits are passed on and unsuccessful ones aren't. In the case of dogs, the canids able to tolerate being around prehistoric people were able to eat the scraps and early man found the canid provided protection and warning of other predators, it was very much a symbiotic relationship.

Feline and man for all intents and purposes just kind of agreed to exist together. As we developed agriculture and formed permanent settlements the grain attracted rodents which in turn attracted cats. The cats provided free pest control and companionship and are self-cleaning so were essentially given free reign, that relationship remains relatively unchanged.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I have no clue where you're pulling that from, but it absolutely does not match archaeological evidence, historical evidence, or existing practices of folkways.

That's not how selective breeding has worked for ages.

The only time culling has been used is in food animals, which is a different thing entirely.

And that cat thing? That's bullshit entirely. There are enormously absolutely zero records of that, so unless you have actual first hand evidence you can share, you're pulling that one out of your ass entirely, or whoever told you that was

[–] ryedaft@sh.itjust.works -4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

People are still throwing bags of kittens in rivers and leaving boxes of puppies to die on the side of the road. Why do you need archaeological evidence for something that is still happening? Cats and dogs breed a lot and they have large litters. Just because you would never hurt an animal doesn't mean that people wanted to live with that many animals in the past.

And yes, that is exactly how natural selection works. It's death and replication.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 weeks ago

Dude, GTFO with that shit.

Also, if another species is specifically culling the other species, that's called selective breeding, not natural selection, you fucking pointy headed, ignorant cretin.

And you need archaeological evidence because you fucking claimed that's how dogs and cats got domesticated. You made the fucking claim, and it is wrong.

Now, does animal abuse exist? absofuckinglutely

But that's not what the fucking topic of conversation was. You, you festering pimple of a human being decided to spew the pus of your ignorance into what was a nice, friendly discussion about dogs and humans. You did so by making outright false claims and going on a tangent that's unrelated.

Your inability to comprehend what's being discussed, and then doubling down on something you could have looked up, like the definitions of natural selection and selective breeding shows exactly what kind of moron you are.

So, go look up those definitions. Go, look them up. But don't waste your damn time or mine coming back to triple down by having looked it up, been shown you were wrong, but being too much of a jackass to back down and say "oh, gee, I learned something today in a science meme community".

This, the kind of shit you're trying to pull is what sucks about the internet. Jesus fucking christ, it's SCIENCE MEMES and you're coming in spouting off complete off topic bullshit, and you're somehow surprised people are repeatedly correcting you, and you can't be bothered to verify the fucking definitions?

GTFO with your bullshit.

[–] AllHailTheSheep@sh.itjust.works 24 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

depends on the person. my neighbors, who never walk their dog, barely feed it, and just let it out in the back yard for 3 hours a day (hoarders backyard in the city where all it can do is stand in the 2x2 corner where it uses the bathroom and bark, asking them to play with it) do not deserve a dog. for any responsible owner though, I agree

[–] lars@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Mostly rhetorically, and without an ability to adopt this dog myself, what would vigilante justice look like in this situation?

[–] AllHailTheSheep@sh.itjust.works 13 points 2 weeks ago

you can try to report it to a local animal cruelty prevention group however a lot of time what they can do is very limited

[–] ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 weeks ago

It doesn't have to be vigilante justice. In a number of countries animal cruelty is illegal. The simple fact that the animal is malnourished would be enough to involve the police. But I don't know what country any of you live in.

[–] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Dogs show us how good we can be

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Do you know what a child's face looks like after their family Golden rips it off?

Because I do.

So, yeah, your statement still works, I guess.

[–] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 2 points 2 weeks ago

And how does this disprove the millennia of evidence in favour of dogs as a positive influence on people? I'm sorry about those kids. I really. Yet, I still think that my dog makes my life better in ways that I hadn't even dreamed of before adopting her.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 48 points 2 weeks ago

Science is not supposed to make me cry, dammit!

[–] pH3ra@lemmy.ml 37 points 2 weeks ago

[–] LogicalDrivel@sopuli.xyz 23 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Id love to see a recreation of the dog. Its hard to get a sense of scale but the head looks quite big. Also:

Along with the dog, a small number of microchips were found which can be interpreted as grave gifts.

Microchips? Is that like chips of flint napping or were the ancient alien dudes on to something?

[–] lime@feddit.nu 31 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

the original text has it as "mikrospån", which should be translated as microblade, a 3-5cm flint blade used to make microliths.

[–] LogicalDrivel@sopuli.xyz 5 points 2 weeks ago

Ah thanks, i kind of forgot Firefox translated it for me. That makes much mores sense.

[–] xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 weeks ago

Bro how else would anthropoligists know the dog had an owner. Duh

[–] prex@aussie.zone 21 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Aboriginal oral histories date back at least another 2000 years before this.

[–] OprahsedCreature@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Well now I'm curious as to how they date oral histories

[–] MartianSands@sh.itjust.works 25 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Stories about events we can identify in the archeological record, probably. Forest fires, major battles, geological events, things like that which can be used to line the stories up with specific real-world events

[–] Siegfried@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Those dudes survived a volcanic eruption that wiped out half of humanity. I guess they still remember it?

[–] nomous@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

People are still talking about some flood that probably happened at some point in pre-history.

[–] Siegfried@lemmy.world 11 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I strongly believe that it happened. It doesn't need to be a "flood of biblical dimensions" but just one terrible enough to convince a few early tribes that it was the end of the world as we know it.

That's mankind lore

[–] nomous@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I feel like the myth existing in cultures around the world from Mesopotamia to the Americas gives it credence. It makes sense that a "world-changing event" would work its way into various disparate cultures myths.

[–] Slovene@feddit.nl 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Or it's because people all around the world always lived next to water and encountered floods.

[–] nomous@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Absolutely, water being such a vital part of life pretty much ensures it'll be referenced. Kind of the same thing as various sun gods in cultures around the world.

[–] blazeknave@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

First half really had me expecting you asking about blow jobs

[–] exasperation@lemm.ee 1 points 2 weeks ago

I once dated someone with an extensive oral history.

[–] prex@aussie.zone 4 points 2 weeks ago

Edit: still very cool & I'm sure they loved that dog like I do mine.

[–] RedCarCastle@aussie.zone 17 points 2 weeks ago

I'm getting real jurassic bark vibs here

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Edit: wrote bullshit, but the link is still interesting.

[–] fossilesque@mander.xyz 12 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

History as an academic term usually goes hand in hand with writing, not civilization. When I write, I refer to earlier periods as "prehistoric." This is because historians primarily use written text and similar as their subject of study.

[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Same as a child for many even into this day

[–] NikkiDimes@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

My dogs are my family 100%. I'll mourn them when they're gone like I'd mourn any other family member. Except for that one cousin. Fuck that guy.

[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah I do believe we all have one bad seed to deal with

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Are we certain that the dog didn't die so that it could be buried with someone?

[–] guillem@aussie.zone 7 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

We aren't. I can't find a source to the dog's toys but Phys.org does say it was buried with a person.

[–] ziviz@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 2 weeks ago

LiveScience.org mentions the same question back in 2020

Of note, it's unclear whether the dog died a natural death, or whether it was killed to be buried with its human. An analysis of its remains may reveal this mystery.

I couldn't find an answer though. Most online sources of the discovery are from back in 2020, then it's just memes.

[–] mihor@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 weeks ago

Dude, the dog was 8400 years old! 🤡

[–] witty_username@feddit.nl 3 points 2 weeks ago

A family?