this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2024
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chapotraphouse

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"I decided we would do an oral exam* because it's a great way to see if people have actually learned anything from my course and aren't just parroting notes. Because I can ask them to elaborate on their answers."

Yeah and it's also a great way to get otherwise good students to go blank because it isn't possible to absorb every bit of complex information you spent 12 weeks rushing through, Barbara.

This "gotcha" style teaching fucking pisses me off. There is no time in the real world people are not going to be able to look up their notes. Fuck, half the time I'll ask a professor something and they'll be like "I'll have to look that up later and get back to you." Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE HUMAN AND THATS HOW BRAINS ARE.

This type of teaching only favours students that already had experience with the subject beforehand and freaks with amazing memories. This kind of understanding of the material only comes from experience and repetition, something that the traditional 12 weeks of rushed lectures/labs that discard each topic quickly to fit all of them in don't do.

I fucking hate how much I am going into debt to be taught only the vaguest concepts but doing most of the teaching myself in my own time. Education under capitalism is a joke.

*An oral exam is an exam where instead of answering questions in a quiet room on paper, you have to answer questions on a live video call with your instructor.

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[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 42 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

I can tell you as a teacher that there is no method of assessment that does not disadvantage someone. Answering questions in writing in a quiet room is a nightmare scenario for somebody. For instance, I teach in a very poor area and have a lot of students with lagging writing skills who would be thrilled to have a chance to just talk through material they understand but struggle to express in writing. This is not to say that the education system under capitalism doesn't do a shit job generally with the neurodivergent, but that's mainly because there is no one-size-fits-all approach to education that works for everyone, but differentiating for everyone's needs is hard and, ultimately, expensive. The bigger the class size, the smaller the staff, the less possible differentiation becomes, but of course, capital does not want to fund a robust education system.

New York State passed a law to reduce class sizes a few years ago, and the New York DOE just hasn't done anything to comply with the law. They're not hiring more teachers, they're not building more schools. They don't even have a plan to get to the required sizes. They're just shrug-outta-hecks

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I see. Geez, I knew teachers were overworked and understaffed, but that sounds dire

[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 19 points 1 month ago

If you're experienced, you learn ways to deal with it, and the school system can vary wildly from place to place in the US. But generally the the need for as few staff as possible to teach as many students as possible is in direct tension with every student getting their needs met.

This is why the bourgeoisie are increasingly turning to things like charter schools (essentially publicly-funded private schools), computerized instruction and, increasingly, AI, to try and solve this contradiction.

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[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 37 points 1 month ago (5 children)

My final sociology exam to get a BA was a 4 hour exam where we had to sit down and write three 2000 word essays off of 6 random questions presented at the exam.

No notes allowed.

When the fuck will I ever have someone put a gun to my head and say 'reguiritate from memory these three topics with SOURCES and write them in pen, you have an hour'

Absolutely useless exam type. I still passed but it felt more like a speedrun than an actual test.

[–] booty@hexbear.net 23 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You had to source things by memory? What the hell lmao

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 1 month ago

Yeah in practice it meant just memorizing 6 entire essays and the studies associated with it and then hoping the marker could read my handwriting, which is awfull considering like 99% of the general public I do all my writing on a keyboard...

[–] sawne128@hexbear.net 19 points 1 month ago

Writing 6000 words in 4 hours seems like a feat of athleticism even if typed on a computer.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 18 points 1 month ago (1 children)

That actually sounds like a form of torture

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

my wrists where literally bruised after it

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How long ago was this? It sounds like something that should actually be illegal

[–] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 month ago (2 children)

lol like 2014-2016, I highly suspect its still happening.

It is legit just there as a filter against the plebs who didnt learn cursive handwriting or who dont have photogenic memory as a result of 100's of hours of private tutoring.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago

That fucking sucks

[–] WittyProfileName2@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I had to do something similar as part of my biomed BSc back in 2023, so I can confirm it is still happening.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Wtf that's evil. How does anyone even pass?

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[–] Hexboare@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago

That's about as much time as I ever allowed myself to complete an assessment

dubois-finger-guns

(Not with a fucking pen though, good luck reading that)

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[–] cerealkiller@hexbear.net 30 points 1 month ago (2 children)

In college right now for an animation course in engineering.

We were literally thaught how to make AI slop (deepfakes, AI generated images) by the professors assistant since the professor refused to show up. He went on how this "won't replace us" and how It was "revolutionary" even though It looked like shit. Mind you he's the same guy who told us "Don't pirate Windows, buy It for 5€.".

Sometimes I think of dropping out and going freelance as an artist even though I'm only a month into my first year. Though I'm very afraid how and where to promote my stuff

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 25 points 1 month ago

It's very scary how "flying by the seat of their pants" and low quality higher education seems to be. We really are having a capitalist education crisis.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Honestly as a self acclaimed AI hater i feel like Animation is one actual decent use case for generative AI. Like you make the art like normal and then have the AI generate extra frames for you that are just slightly edited. Like moving an arm or whatever. But ya just fully generating something is stupid. Hope the animation thing goes well for you whatever you decide to do.

[–] blobjim@hexbear.net 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

That's already how animation works, except it uses normal math and algorithms to interpolate and generate frames. Frame generation using machine learning is good for generating frames for old film from when really low framerates where the only thing possible.

[–] cerealkiller@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Pretty much, there's a good video from a year or so ago on why frame generation for animation doesn't work:

https://youtu.be/_KRb_qV9P4g

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[–] dinklesplein@hexbear.net 28 points 1 month ago (2 children)

i'm not sure that i agree that oral exams are inherently bad, i just think they need to be taken with the instructor having a spirit of charitability and recognising that students can't remember every little detail. evidently this wasn't the case with you but the typical exam paper format isn't very good for neurodivergent students either in a very different way, like i'd always do awfully in exams by my standards so obviously i'd be more inclined to think that format is worse than oral.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago (2 children)

It really depends for me. I like practical exams, but it's the interview type set up that's giving me anxiety. I suck at written exams too, but les than when I'm being stared at and judged ohnoes

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[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago

Absolutely! My prof said it's a bit tricky because he needs to feel for gaps if he wants to give a high mark but he will look for what's actually known to give a passing grade. So he tries to steer the conversation according to clues you might drop in your answers, but can't overlook mistakes or should-be-known.

I really like oral exams more than written because of ADD, but if we think outside that dichotomy than having the students write something they taught themselves would be much better. But that requires a lot of educators in even a mid-sized class.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 26 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Consider yourself lucky that you didn’t live in the USSR/Russia, where the exams in universities were/are predominantly oral, several times a semester.

You are expected to demonstrate your understanding the topic you study broadly and in depth, and that means you should be able to answer just about any questions asked about the topic.

You draw a “ticket”, which contains a few questions on the paper, everyone in the class then gets a couple hours to solve, then the professors (usually several in the same room) will randomly choose one of you to get to the front, present your prepared answers, and get grilled by the professors until they are satisfied.

There are more tickets than there are students, so no two student will ever get the same problems/questions. These cover pretty much everything taught during the semester.

There is no way to cheat, no way to skim through the course. You must know your subject well, or else just don’t bother at all until you are ready. Throughout your course, you are expected to go through several dozens of “tickets”. You get used to it eventually.

Not to say they don’t come with their own problems and downsides, and the quality of the teachers and the education system in general matter, but there is a reason why the USSR (and still today’s Russia) produces some of the best specialists in the world.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

Damn, harsh. I very much look up to those Soviet scientists.

I guess they got to try the class as many times as they wanted, and it was probably far cheaper too which is at least an upside. I think half of my anxiety about University comes from the fact that I'm financially struggling while going in to debt haha desolate

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

Yeah I can imagine how a poorly taught class/university would not sufficiently prepare their students for this kind of exam.

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[–] Azarova@hexbear.net 25 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Going through university while mentally ill is a horrible experience. So fun having to email professors asking for extra time on an assignment here and there because I had an episode and effectively being told 'tough shit'. Very cool, thanks! I love how callous the entire institution is!! Reminds me why I never reach out for help in the first place. I don't know how quite to articulate it, but something about the way higher education works feels so antithetical to the process of learning, but maybe the experience of NTs is very different.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 month ago

No, it's antithetical to learning for NTs, too.

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[–] egg1918@hexbear.net 23 points 1 month ago (6 children)

I never understood "filter" classes, ones with failure rates >50%. Because to me it seems either the professors are fucking awful or that it's deliberately meant to be failed and retaken multiple times, charging full price each time

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[–] REgon@hexbear.net 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

On the other hand as a person with adhd I love oral exams because then I don't really have to pay attention in class. I can bullshit my way to a B-A+ with the bare minimum of academic effort. I'll be able to yap so much they can't ask any questions and then they'll bemoan the fact we don't have more time because I seem to have a wealth of knowledge hehehe.

Written exams though? Hello executive dysfunction

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Ha, that rules (the being able to talk part, not the written exam dysfunction part. I feel you pain).

I guess our ADHD manifests in different ways, I get overwhelmed in interview type situations and end up forgetting which words I want to use "Uhh... I mean...nuh what's the word for that again?"

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Another thing I do is tell them that I am nervous! It has only yielded positive results so far

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[–] Daemnyz@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

To bei honest, I highly favour oral exams. This semester I had to chose between a 20 page termpaper or a 20 minute oral exam, which was a no-brainer to me. Writing a termpaper clashes with my ADHD. I have to keep tabs on like 15 books and the according notes and work on the project virtually uninterrupted for ~1 month without any kind of feedback until I hand it in? Thats a nightmare... Oral exams on the other hand are awesome. I can read like 2 books in the matter in around a week (because I don't need to take notes) for preparation and can just geek out with my professor about the topic. I think I just favour the conversation style of the exam, when my prof reacts to my answer I can infer if it was right or if I should come back to it. I don't think your opinion is wrong or something, but different flavours of neurodivergency have different needs. I really like that more offen than not I can choose the category of my exam :)

[–] Hexboare@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago (6 children)

I have to keep tabs on like 15 books and the according notes and work on the project virtually uninterrupted for ~1 month without any kind of feedback

The different manifestations of ADHD are fascinating, I don't think I could work on anything for a month. I'd do literally anything else and finally sit down to write it in the last 24 hours*

*Realistically last six hours

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[–] livestreamedcollapse@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

I'd like to consider myself a freak with an amazing memory but, yeah, that on the spot pressure/call-outs were especially rough in graduate-level sciences. I get the whole in-situ "determine the limits of your knowledge on the subject" but damn if it didn't feel like the primary investigator of the lab I was in just saw me as a lab rat to poke and prod for his curiosity when I was presenting research updates.

Also not fun to learn I probably had test anxiety for my entire scholastic career & never had accomodations suggested to me until I was nearly done with my coursework :/

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[–] DavidGarcia@feddit.nl 15 points 1 month ago (5 children)

The only thing that school taught me is how to withstand constant immense suffering. Most of anything useful, I learned on my own terms.

Work on the other hand is pretty easy, mainly because no matter how shit the workday is:

  1. I get to go home and not care about it at all

  2. I get something in return for my suffering

  3. I know what I am doing is not completely pointless, because someone has decided to pay me for it

So I guess thank you school, for making the most shit material conditions seem like a blessing in comparison.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

Under capitalism, education, particularly elementary, middle and highschool, are mostly set up to teach you how to be a good little obedient worker accept your exploitation under capitalism. It also makes people associate learning or doing anything outside their "place" with horrible times. Works a treat.

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[–] this_dude_eating_beans@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Thinking back, the first thing that started my spiral in highschool and eventually snowballed into me dropping out was a mandatory public speaking assignment in a fucking health class during sophomore year. I was a pretty decent student up until then.

I had really bad social anxiety that no amount of "suck it up and get over it" would have fixed. I wasn't able to confront and remedy it until years later.

But yeah, forced to give an oral exam in front of a class of 30+, just skipped the entire class, took the F, my grades tanked to the point it was impossible to recover without repeating years and summer school. My mom already barely had enough money as it was, forget going to summer school. So I just dropped out.

The teacher was completely indifferent when I told her in private and gave me the whole "you either do it or fail" so yeah. A year later I dropped out. Life didn't really turn out much different had I graduated, though so there's that. Maybe I would've struggled less in my 20s, idk.

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[–] Gorb@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

Paper exams are bad enough fuck oral exams. Last one i did was oral German exam ages ago and I had rehearsed what I was going to say properly but the second i sat down my brain just went "nah" and i couldn't remember a fucking thing.

What kind of exam method is that?????

[–] Sulvor@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I think our entire approach to education and training is just fundamentally flawed from the ground up, like so many other systems in place.

The education system should be tailored to identify each person's passions, talents, and aptitudes from a much earlier age. I know peoples' preferences change but by the time you enter high school, you are old enough to start specializing for your future imo.

While kids still have access to the resources public education provides and the time to take advantage of them, we should be giving them every opportunity to explore everything they can learn and focus on learning what they like. And I definitely don't just mean 'practical' or 'utilitarian' skills. Some kid is an amazing painter? Let them triple the amount of art classes if they don't want to take a foreign language and math. Mathematician? Writer? Chemist? Same goes.

I understand a well rounded education is important so people can have a broader view of the world and understand the work other people do, but what we're doing now is wasting so much potential.

Super idealist I know, but how did we make a society where the kids are an afterthought? sadness

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nah, don't feel bad. Idealist or not, it's practical and rational to make sure your people are reaching their full desired potential. That's how you have a healthy strong society and probably one of the many reasons our current society is falling apart.

[–] Sulvor@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yeah viewing public education as a 'money sink' or something that needs to be 'efficient' has trickled down into how some people view their own children as investments or liabilities.

Take all the money from defense funding and put it in education.

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[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago (3 children)

This type of teaching only favours students that already had experience with the subject beforehand

I couldn’t have survived most of the time not doing this. Spend my summer researching random stuff and base much of my class work on that. Only way my AuDHD could make it.

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[–] christian@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Unless you've left something out, I feel like you're being unfair to the instructor here by assuming malice for giving oral exams. Have you voiced this concern with her? My reaction is that this instructor is putting enormously more effort into her students than she's being paid to, I'm not sure you realize how much more of a time investment that is.

I've had students come to me about test anxiety and if I trust that they have a decent understanding then I'll offer an option to test orally instead. A lot of students do much better with oral exams. It allows me to say okay, you can't answer this particular question, but I can probe adjacent things to give partial credit. I can see you do have some understanding of what the question is meant to test for, I realize that this specific detail is tripping you up and you would do fine with a question that didn't involve that one hiccup. With a written exam, I'm just grading on how well you answer the one question. It's not reasonable to take stabs at how much better you might do with a slightly different question, because that would be massively influenced by the biases of what I'm expecting out of you before the exam starts - it's hard for that not to end up at better grades for students I like more. I can't look beyond how well the steps you've written on the paper lead towards answering the question you were given.

In a better world I would offer them for everyone, but it's a massive time investment. I'm reluctant to make that offer unless I already have some confidence they're decent with the material, because if I give an oral exam and they're struggling it might be hard for me to not leak frustration with having two hours of my time burned for no benefit, and if they read that on me it won't help with test anxiety and won't be better for anyone.

Seriously, just start a dialogue with her about this in private.

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[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

i have said for a while that school is basically a filter for people who can sit in a room doing mind numbing shit for 8 hours a day 5 days a week without

::: spoiler sui


killing themselves

[–] CarmineCatboy2@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We don't have oral exams, at least not in my area. And if anything the dynamic here is the reverse. When you're permitted to look over your notes, then I'm not only looking at how much data you can bring to the fore but also how well you can utilize it in your essay. The standards rise with being able to look over notes.

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