this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
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What are cis and trans alternate types of? I don't think it's "gender identity" because wouldn't that just be man, woman or nonbinary regardless of whether they're cis or trans? Cis/trans just being a qualifier?

If the answer is "I am cis" or "I am trans", what is the question?

Edit: Someone came up with the term "gender congruity" and (after looking up the definition of "congruity") I think this describes what I'm talking about perfectly.

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[–] fubo@lemmy.world 87 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

To a first approximation, they describe the match or mismatch between a person's gender identity and their assigned gender at birth (AGAB).

"Cis" = "my gender identity matches my assigned gender at birth"
"Trans" = "my gender identity does not match my assigned gender at birth"

The question being asked is, "Given that when you were born they thought of you as a (boy/girl); are you now expressing or experiencing a (male/female) gender, or a (female/male) one?"

Logically speaking, this is an xor operation; it asks if two things are the same or different. If boolean variable a represents your AGAB and boolean variable b represents your gender identity, then "are you trans?" is a xor b — is your AGAB different from your gender identity?

Again, this is to a first approximation. There are people who don't fit binary labels, and so an xor operation on binary labels doesn't fit them either.

[–] mcherm@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I like the way you express this. "Cis / Trans" isn't about your gender, it's about whether your gender has CHANGED. (Although it may not be your GENDER that changed, but what people THOUGHT your gender was.)

In a similar way, I (a cis male) usually call myself "straight", but that's not really accurate. I don't feel like I'm attracted to whatever gender is different from mine (which happens to be women); I feel like I am attracted to women (which happens to be the gender that's different from mine).

Putting it differently, if some magical spell were to transform me into a woman, I don't imagine that I would then be attracted to men, I imagine that I would be attracted to women. So instead of calling myself "straight", I should probably be saying that I am "gynosexual" (attracted to women).

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[–] nomadjoanne@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Hahaha. A nice and appropriately nerdy explanation. Very nice.

[–] ulu_mulu@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Finally a "down to earth" explanation I can fully understand, thank you!

[–] Entropywins@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

I appreciate the use of formal logic here, I don't see this enough!!!

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[–] wagesj45@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that cis and trans really only have context of an expectation. In this case, it would be the expectation of society.

You are correct that if you identify as a woman or a man, you are a woman or man. If you have a penis, or a vagina, or some mix or lack of those, then those are just parts of your body and that isn't really up to interpretation.

In broad strokes, society expects your body parts (penis, vagina) to correspond to how you identify (man, woman). Humans are kind of just built this way. Our brains take a lot of shortcuts and categorize the world around us. It is statistically likely that if you have a penis, you identify as a man.

As we've evolved as a society, we have come to understand and recognize that these statistically likely correlations not always hold up (it's just likely, not a guarantee, after all). So cis and trans are descriptors of whether or not the correlation between your gender identity and your physical characteristics match (cis) or don't match (trans) society's expectations.

[–] FinnFooted@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Cis and trans are terms that came before their application to gender identity. I learned themin organic chemistry in reference to chemical isomers.

Wikipedia: The prefixes "cis" and "trans" are from Latin: "this side of" and "the other side of", respectively.

As applied to gender, "this side of" you are the gender of the sex you were born as. "The other side of" means you have switched your gender to the other side of the sex from which you were born.

Edit: to answer your question more directly, your gender is cis or trans of the sex you were born as. The question you ask for is: "is your gender cis or trans of your sex?"

[–] BurntPunk@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

This is the correct answer to the question that was asked by OP.

Well said.

[–] MrShelbySan@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Please note I’m typing this as a trans man. Being “cis” or “trans” stems from someone’s gender.

Basically, do you identify as your birth gender (not sex, gender and sex are different)? If the answer is yes, you are “cis”. If the answer is no, like I my case, I was born female, I identify as a male, then you are are trans.

I hope this answers your question.

[–] GaryPonderosa@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (34 children)

Shouldn't it be that you identify with your birth sex? If gender is a social construct you don't have a gender at birth. When the doctor says "It's a boy" they're referring to the genitalia you have, not assigning you a social position.

[–] RustledTeapot@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (16 children)

You might not believe in the social construct at birth, but the social construct believes in you. Children are treated differently based on assigned gender from birth.

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[–] RBWells@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

I think it's an alignment, like parallel vs. perpendicular.

If you identify with your sex at birth, whatever it is, your identity is aligned with your biological sex at birth, that is called Cisgender. Parallel.

If your gender identity is not aligned with your biological sex at birth, it is at an angle to it, perhaps perpendicular (you were a boy baby but are a woman) perhaps a different angle (perhaps were born a girl and are non-binary). Anything other than that parallel alignment is thrown into the Trans bucket, but particularly the perpendicular arrangements.

[–] match@pawb.social 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

gender chirality . gender isomerism. gender topology

[–] Woozy@lemmy.fmhy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My topology is a tube with appendages. Ultimately, humans (like all chordates) are convoluted toroids.

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[–] positiveWHAT@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Gender congruence.

[–] michikade@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cisgender means the person has a gender identity that matches the sex they were assigned at birth.

If you are a man and you were assigned male at birth, you are cis.

If you are a man and you were assigned female at birth, you are trans.

Non-binary can mean anything from not having a strong specifically male or female identity to closer to switching identities (bi-gender falls closer into this) to just having a lot of serious fluidity, but typically speaking at least part of the time the identity doesn’t match the assigned sex at birth.

[–] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I don't think any of you read his question.

[–] jeffjefferson@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

If you're so smart answer the question. I bet you can't because the way it's worded makes no sense.

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[–] TitanLaGrange@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

You can think of 'cis' and 'trans' as meaning roughly 'this side' and 'other side'.

In a gender context the 'sides' are male and female and the items are physical gender and mental gender. If both genders are on the same side, both on 'this side', that's 'cis'. If they are different, one 'this side', one 'other side', that's 'trans'.

So, if the answer is "I am cis/trans" the question is "Is your mental gender the same as your physical gender?" "I am cis" then means "My mental gender is the same as my physical gender" and "I am trans" means "My mental gender is not the same as (or maybe 'is opposite') my physical gender".

Note that 'physical gender' is not always clear. Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia and may be surgically altered to make their genitalia more closely resemble the commonly recognized pattern for 'male' or 'female', and some may be left as-is. In some cases this can be a reason for a trans gender identity.

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[–] scamper@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You might call the category lived experience. Does your gender identity match your lived experience and upbringing, or does it not? Sometimes you see trans people use the phrase 'man of trans experience' or 'woman of trans experience' to highlight that the word trans applies to history and experience. So the question might be, "what is your gender experience?" or "what is the nature of your gender socialization?"

[–] scamper@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

I'm trying to think of questions that have a similar vibe. these may be way off (I'm not trans) so take with a grain of salt -

a religious person meets someone in their congregation and asks if they are a convert or were born in.
a person on a date asks their date, a single person, if they are divorced or never married.

I think I would struggle to define the category being asked about in these questions too. It's something about history and expectations.

[–] Ciari@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

They're adjectives. Just like "tall" or "smart" or "young".

The question would just be "are you cis or trans?", there's not a specific word or term that you'd use.

[–] Hypersapien@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Tall or short would be a person's height.
Smart or dumb would be a person's intelligence.
Young or old would be a person's age.

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[–] count0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 year ago

Gender alignment? Gender alignment vs biological/birth sex?

[–] BendyLemmy@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

CIS is simply opposite of TRANS - they simply describe someone's identity in terms of their physiology.

Confusion rises, somewhat, when you factor in masculinity/femininity to the equation - but basically 'trans' means that having a dick doesn't mean you're a man... 'cis' means that being a man means you have a penis.

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[–] ChemicalRascal@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

If the answer is "I am cis" or "I am trans", what is the question?

The question would, to be blunt, be "are you cis or trans?", because "cis" and "trans" are just shorthand for "cisgender" and "transgender".

It's a question of very limited scope -- even if you were to reword it -- because in modern society, the exact detail of if someone is cis or trans isn't really practically important. If someone is a man, say, society cares a lot more about them being a man rather than being a cisgender man or a transgender man. (I'd say the same about women, but there's obviously a subset of society that is in the process of demonising trans women, so...)

I think the core issue you've found is that cis/trans-ness is something that only makes sense in the context of something else, the gender identity of the person in question.

[–] badgerific@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

I agree with what you're stating and I hope that that's where we are headed - there just being man, woman, and non-binary gender identities. For now though, as I see it, cis/trans become relevant in three ways (off the top of my head):

  1. Medical situations - self explanatory
  2. In pursuance of romantic/sexual relations - society is still at the stage where the visual perception of a person lead to certain presumptions. Not everyone may be okay with dating/having sex with a person who has different genitalia than they presumed that their partner would have.
  3. [This point is my personal opinion] The visibility of people openly owning their journey can be a source of information, give courage to others who are undergoing the same journey and are scared or confused. I knew about my orientation way before I realized that there's a term for it or that their are others like me.

I hope I got your query right.

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