this post was submitted on 06 May 2024
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145
Don’t Buy the Right-Wing Disinformation Campaign on “From the River to the Sea” (truthout.org)
submitted 6 months ago by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 62 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

The phrase originally came from secular Palestinian nationalists in the 1960s calling for a democratic secular state within the boundaries of what was the British Mandate for Palestine, encompassing Israel, the then-Jordanian controlled West Bank and the then-Egyptian administered Gaza Strip — that is, the lands between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The PLO of that era also advocated mass expulsion of Jews and their descendants except those who lived in Palestine before the late 19th century, and even that was ambiguous, so I don't know that "The phrase doesn't have any connotations of ethnic cleansing!" is really correct here.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The 19th century begins in 1801. I think you're likely referencing a later date (probably 1917).

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

First Aliyah, starting 1881.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Why? Though that's also not before the 19th century.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Why?

That's the commonly accepted date?

Though that’s also not before the 19th century.

Didn't mean to say before the whole 19th century. I'll edit that.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)
[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I've definitely seen PLO-friendly sources cite 1881 as the start of the invasion.

Ultimately, though, this is just an aside, the main thrust being that ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing regardless of whether the ethnic cleansers want a secular, democratic state (or, indeed, are being ethnically cleansed themselves).

I take the very shocking view that ethnic cleansing is bad, whether pre-emptive or in vengeance.

[–] Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Seems like often ambiguous topic seem like the things both sides of any argument focus on and dig heels in about.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Certainly true. On one hand, ambiguous topics are a convenient way to discredit one's enemies by ascribing the more extreme position to them. On the other hand, they can just as easily be a dog whistle or motte-and-bailey argument.

[–] Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

I also wonder if when we talk about foreign and domestic troll farms if those are the topics they push.

Its like the Facebook math questions "8÷2(2×2)=?" Which gets thousands and thousands of engagement and people all arguing not knowing better or they do know better and attempt to explain.

[–] 0110010001100010@lemmy.world 21 points 6 months ago

Is the right-wing anything but a disinformation campaign at this point? Outside of "fuck em all to death" I'm not sure what (or even if) they have a platform anymore. Seems to just be raw hate.

[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

There is exactly one state here that does a forced "from the river to the sea" people replacement campaign here, and it is not Palestina.

[–] ME5SENGER_24@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Adding the subtitle…

This phrase was never about killing Jews. It emerged in the 1960s as a call for equal rights within a democratic state.

[–] takeda@lemmy.world 30 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The equal rights were 1947 borders set by the UN, which Arab nations rejected and started a war which they lost.

If you look at the map, "from the river to the sea" clearly means the whole area.

The original slogan also was "from the river to the sea Palestine is Islamic/Arab", but that would be far less catchy in the West.

As for equal rights in democratic state, that has to be a joke. Just look at population of Israel where almost 25% is Arabic and compare it to Palestine which is very homogenous.

Nethanyahu is a MF, far right politician that should spend the rest of his life in jail, but let's not pretend the other side are saints. They would would do exactly same (maybe even worse) if they had the means.

There are no good guys on either side of that conflict, just innocent people caught in the middle.

[–] livus@kbin.social 13 points 6 months ago

Just look at population of Israel where almost 25% is Arabic and compare it to Palestine

That's a bit like comparing the proportion of immigrant citizens in the wealthy US with those in its low income neighbour Mexico.

Only, if the US was also occupying most of Mexico and controlled who could enter or leave.

Tl; dr it says a lot more about the situation than it does about the wishes of the population.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

The original slogan also was “from the river to the sea Palestine is Islamic/Arab”, but that would be far less catchy in the West.

From where do you get this belief? According to the Wikipedia editors the precise origin is unknown, but a variant matching your claim (except it's from the water to the water) was coexisting with the "sea"/"free" version (both in Arabic) in the 1980s.

As for equal rights in democratic state, that has to be a joke. Just look at population of Israel where almost 25% is Arabic and compare it to Palestine which is very homogenous.

Why would a Jewish person choose to live in a ghetto rather than Israel. They have innate right to citizenship in the modern wealthy country next door. The people living in Palestine are doing so either because they have a deep attachment to the land or because they don't have any other choice, not because it's an attractive place to live. What Israelis have lived there were settlers trying to take land, not integrate into the society. Maybe the Palestinians (which ones?) would implement their own apartheid, but there not being many non-Arabs in Palestine isn't at all an indication of anything.

[–] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 6 months ago

There were many attacks on Palestinian Jews already before Israel came into existence, when Arab nations attacked Israel (that is both Jewish and Arab Israelis), there were attacks against Palestinian Jews, so many or most of them fled, I guess also because the state Israel seemed like a safe haven compared to the horrors of Europe in the centuries before, so Palestinian Jews had many reasons to go to the Israeli areas.