this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2024
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[–] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 162 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Wow, imagine where we'd be if Oil and Gas hadn't convinced almost everyone that solar was never going to work well.

[–] FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world 63 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Imagine where we’d be if people didn’t automatically think nuclear power=Homer Simpson

[–] Zoboomafoo@slrpnk.net 26 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Is it too much to ask for people to not get their political opinions from cartoons?

[–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 12 points 5 months ago

Instructions unclear, politics informed by WW2 doctor Seus propaganda.

[–] Flipper@feddit.de 19 points 5 months ago (2 children)

The great thing about nuclear power is that the real cost only comes after the power has been generated. How do you store the spent fuel cells and what do you do with the reactor when it can't be used anymore. Just before that happens you spin the plant into its own company. When that company goes bankrupt the state needs to cover the cost, as it isn't an option to just leave it out in the open.

Privatise profit communalism cost.

[–] UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev 34 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

Here's all of Switzerland's high level nuclear waste for the last 45 years. It solid pellets. You could fit the entire ~~world's~~ US' waste on a football field.

It's not the greatest challenge mankind have faced.

[–] HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world 23 points 5 months ago

Also want to point out, most of that is container, not spent fuel. The safety standards are so ridiculously high that they basically guarantee zero risk.

More people (per plant) are exposed to elevated levels of radiation due to coal power, and that's not even including the health risk of all the other shit they release

[–] Jayjader@jlai.lu 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

According to Our World In Data (which claims to use the Energy Institute's Statistical Review of World Energy from 2023 as a data source), that waste is from producing around 70 TWh each year:

That only covers around a third of Switzerland's energy consumption over those years. Furthermore, Switzerland is a small mountainous country with decent access to hydropower (making up around a third of its needs over the same years). They are not necessarily representative of the waste that would accumulate from a more agressive switch from fossil fuels to nuclear across the world (which is what we're talking about, if I'm not mistaken).

France is about 10 times larger in surface area and according to the same source, consumed/produced over 1,000 TWh of nuclear energy each year:

And officially has still has no place to put the high-energy waste (source - in french), leaving it up to the plant's owners to deal with it. There is an official project to come up with a "deep" geological storage facility, but no political will seems musterable to make that plan materialize beyond endless promises.

I should mention that I'm not super anti-nuclear, and I would certainly rather we focus on eliminating coal and oil power plants (and ideally natural gas ones as well) before we start dismantling existing nuclear reactors that are still in functioning order.

That being said, there are other problems with nuclear moving forwards besides waste management. The main one that worries me is the use of water for the cooling circuits, pumped from rivers or the sea. Not only do open cooling circuits have adverse affects on their surrounding ecosystems, as the planet gets warmer and the temperature swings during the hotter seasons become more pronounced, the power plants will become less efficient. The water going in will be at a higher temperature than it is today, and thus will absorb less energy from the nuclear reaction itself.

Overall, I don't trust our current collective responsibility as a species to manage our current forms of nuclear production. Russia sent its own troops into the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone to dig trenches in contaminated soil last year, and they allegedly recognized last week that the Zaporizhzhia power plant is now "unsafe to restart" because of the military activity in the region.

The world has not experienced generalized warfare with nuclear power plants dotting the countryside; WW2 ended around a decade before the first nuclear power plants were up and running in the USSR, the UK, and the USA.

Not to mention how few European countries have access to uranium on their own soil/territory. Of course, most of the rare earth metals used in photoelectric panels and windmills aren't found there either, but as least with "renewables" they are used once to make the machinery, not as literal fuel that is indefinitely consumed to produce power.

I don't know enough about thorium-based reactors nor molten salt-based reactors to go to bat for them instead, but they seem like a more promising way for nuclear to remain relevant.

[–] UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I don't think solution for storage would be a problem if politicians had more of a backbone with deciding a place for storage, and I frankly don't see a future without fossil fuels where nuclear doesn't play a key role. All of the US' nuclear waste could fit on a football field 3 meters tall. We got space for it.

As for energy security. Canada is a massive producer, and NexGen Energy is sitting on a massive deposit. Most utilities store ~4 years of material on site, and the fact it's so easily stored for many years is why Japan invested heavily in it in all those years ago. I don't think access to uranium is much of a concern.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

and I frankly don’t see a future without fossil fuels where nuclear doesn’t play a key role

I think the anti-nuclear idiots are, well, idiots, but I disagree with you here. I think the idiots have successfully blocked nuclear long enough that it's just more economical to go full renewable + storage. Yeah, we should have had nuclear 50 years ago and would probably be looking at a much more habitable planet, I fully agree. But I think the ship has sailed.

[–] Waryle@jlai.lu 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

France made a record year last year, with 320TWh of nuclear power produced for a total of 434 TWh of electricity, while being the top exporter of electricity of Europe.

I don't know how they got to 1000TWh of nuclear a year, I suspect weed.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

In Germany, we've got a location with 47,000 cubic meters: https://www.bge.de/en/asse/
That requires some pretty tall stacking on that football field. Or I guess, you're saying if you'd unpack it all and compress it?

Also, we really should be getting the nuclear waste out of said location, since there's a known risk of contamination. But even that challenge is too great for us, apparently.
Mainly, because we don't have any locations that are considered safe for permanent storage. It's cool that Switzerland has figured it out. And that some hypothetical football field exists. But it doesn't exist in Germany, and I'm pretty sure, Switzerland doesn't want our nuclear waste either.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago (5 children)

we don’t have any locations that are considered safe for permanent storage

I'm gonna hazard a guess that the "consideration" was not from actual scientists but rather activist homeowner groups in every potential site.

NIMBYism and nuclear, name a more iconic duo

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[–] Waryle@jlai.lu 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (5 children)

In Germany, we've got a location with 47,000 cubic meters: https://www.bge.de/en/asse/

Read your link: 47 000m³ of low and intermediate radioactive waste.

Low radioactive waste is objects (paper, clothing, etc...) which contain a small amount of short-lived radioactivity, and it mostly comes from the medical fields, not nuclear plants, so even if you phase out of nuclear, you'll have to deal with it anyway.

This waste makes up for the vast majority (94% in UK for example) of the nuclear waste produced, and you can just leave it that way a few years, then dispose of it as any other waste.

Intermediate radioactivity waste is irradiated components of nuclear power plants. They are in solid form and do not require any special arrangement to store them as they do not heat up. This includes shorts and long-lived waste and represents only a small part of the volume of radioactive waste produced (4% in UK).

So you're mostly dealing with your medical nuclear waste right here, and you can thank your anti-nuclear folks for blocking most of your infrastructure construction projects to store this kind of waste.

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[–] UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'm speaking strictly of the mass. Most the volume on those containers are likely structure to make sure there is no accidental leak, similar to Switzerland.

I also misremembered, it was all of US' waste that could fit on a single football.

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[–] echodot 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

It's not that difficult to store it's just a rock. You just pop it in a sealed casket, put it underground, mark the location as do not enter and then forget about it. Hardly the greatest of economic challenges.

Anyway you're assuming that we won't have a way of recycling it in the future and there's increasing evidence that we will be able to pretty soon.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

That is a horribly naive underselling of what's involved in storing nuclear waste. How do you transport it? What do you do in the event of an accident during transport? Where is it stored now? Is it somewhere we can get good transport in? How do you mark something "do not enter" for tens of thousands of years? Think of what languages existed during the Roman Empire, and then realize that we'll have to store it for orders of magnitude longer than that.

Logistics, logistics, logistics. They are not easy for even the simplest projects.

We do have the recycling technology. It's not a far off thing; been developed for decades. If there's a good reason for a nuclear renaissance, it's in using the waste we already have, and recycling it down to something that's only dangerous for centuries, not millennia.

[–] echodot 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)

All of the infrastructure for transporting nuclear waste already exists for transporting the existing nuclear waste.

Realistically it's the only viable long-term option it's infinitely better than fossil fuels and Fusion power would be nice but doesn't exist yet at least not outside of a lab and I don't think even in the lab particularly efficient.

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[–] paf0@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That too along with 3MI, and decades of negative propaganda from the fossil fuel industry.

[–] VirtualOdour@sh.itjust.works 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The two nearest nuclear plants to me both had to do serious cleanup after problems were discovered, it's not just the list of big problems people worry about - especially when the nuclear lobby say things like 'they're safe as long as they're run properly and no one cuts corners, but please don't regulated them properly or they won't be cost effective'

Rich people stand to make a monopoly if we're all dependent on nuclear and they can't have that monopoly with solar and wind - maybe it's time to accept a lot of pro nuclear talking points come financially interested parties too.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 7 points 5 months ago

especially when the nuclear lobby say things like ‘they’re safe as long as they’re run properly and no one cuts corners, but please don’t regulated them properly or they won’t be cost effective’

This this this, so much this. Yes, they can be safe. That safety comes with heavy regulation. That makes them incredibly expensive, and once you get there, it's just not worthwhile anymore.

[–] spyd3r@sh.itjust.works 10 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Imagine where we'd be if leftists embraced nuclear power instead of killing it off everywhere they could.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Here in Italy, the only parties that seem to be favorable to nuclear are right-wing.

And of course, they got elected and didn’t actually do anything towards it.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Never trust right-wingers to do literally anything.

If a right wing party promises to take all the money from the rich and redistribute it to the poor, they're lying.

If a right wing party promises to invest in public transit, they're lying.

If a right wing party promises to pass a law enshrining LGBTQ rights, they're lying.

They're just a bunch of fucking liars, all they exist for is to make rich people richer.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Oh, I trust them to do everything I wouldn’t like them to do.

For example, so far they’ve been following through with removing LGBTQ rights and lowering taxes for the rich, just as they promised.

[–] RomenNarmo@lemmy.zip 5 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I'd like to specifically blame the vocal greens and not left or center left people in general.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Me too. Fuck the Greens. Joke political party in so many ways. Even if I lived under a system where First Past the Post voting wasn't the norm, I'd be looking for parties other than the Greens.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Compromised political party.